AMD Halts Optimizations for Mantle API

drunkenmaster · 11 Jul 2015 at 15:22

Uses 'blind loyalty' as an excuse to have a go then says something that only a blind loyal fan to a brand would say, while quoting and attempting to back up the most clearly blindly loyal fanboy on the forum.... the irony is strong in this post.

AMD from the start said this would be a standard. From the first time it was talked about by AMD, I talked about the almost certainty Mantle would be passed off to Khronos or a new group with a similar intent. Lambchop is attempting to suggest Mantle failed by conveniently leaving out that many of us said this was exactly what would happen and was the intention of AMD from the start.

Mantle didn't die and Lambchop is entirely wrong, the outcome of Mantle is literally 100% what I suggested it was from the first time we were aware of it. As is so often Lambchop is attempting to re-write history so he wasn't wrong, which he was.

Kaapstad · 11 Jul 2015 at 15:39

drunkenmaster said:
Uses 'blind loyalty' as an excuse to have a go then says something that only a blind loyal fan to a brand would say, while quoting and attempting to back up the most clearly blindly loyal fanboy on the forum.... the irony is strong in this post.

AMD from the start said this would be a standard. From the first time it was talked about by AMD, I talked about the almost certainty Mantle would be passed off to Khronos or a new group with a similar intent. Lambchop is attempting to suggest Mantle failed by conveniently leaving out that many of us said this was exactly what would happen and was the intention of AMD from the start.

Mantle didn't die and Lambchop is entirely wrong, the outcome of Mantle is literally 100% what I suggested it was from the first time we were aware of it. As is so often Lambchop is attempting to re-write history so he wasn't wrong, which he was.

The game devs killed Mantle with their terrible support for it even when it was included in the games.

gpuerrilla · 11 Jul 2015 at 16:04

Kaapstad said:
The game devs killed Mantle with their terrible support for it even when it was included in the games.

I do not quite agree as if you take BF4 for example, if Dice had not made such of a hash for the game in general, those that used Mantle appreciated the difference when running the game (working).

Rather than blame mantle you have to acknowledge that even for DX users the game was broken and not fit for realease. Had it been a better release you could have compared them side by side and seen how much potential was there which would have turned a few more heads.

Sadly as it was a bad affair nobody could defend mantle as it was absorbed into the suckfest of crashes that loads of users experienced.

This is where I do agree with you as other titles such as Thief didnt really enhance much and again a supported release flopped. I am more annoyed about the TrueAudio saga as this was a nice feature that seems to have been neglected.

opethdisciple · 11 Jul 2015 at 16:37

Mantle was a concept.

Never even made it out of Beta.

AMD used it as a marketing tool to sell video cards.

Thats all it was.

Martini1991 · 11 Jul 2015 at 16:42

Could have sworn that AMD were going on about future Mantle revisions, Mantle 2 etc.

Yet that'd actually fly in the face of what actually happened wouldn't it?

Kaapstad · 11 Jul 2015 at 16:44

Th0nt said:
I do not quite agree as if you take BF4 for example, if Dice had not made such of a hash for the game in general, those that used Mantle appreciated the difference when running the game (working).

Rather than blame mantle you have to acknowledge that even for DX users the game was broken and not fit for realease. Had it been a better release you could have compared them side by side and seen how much potential was there which would have turned a few more heads.

Sadly as it was a bad affair nobody could defend mantle as it was absorbed into the suckfest of crashes that loads of users experienced.

This is where I do agree with you as other titles such as Thief didnt really enhance much and again a supported release flopped. I am more annoyed about the TrueAudio saga as this was a nice feature that seems to have been neglected.

For a long time in BF4 it was difficult to compare Mantle to DX11 as the former had terrible problems with memory usage that made it difficult to run on my 290Xs. This is something that the game dev should never have let out the door.

humbug · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:17

Martini1991 said:
Could have sworn that AMD were going on about future Mantle revisions, Mantle 2 etc.

Yet that'd actually fly in the face of what actually happened wouldn't it?

They said they are continuing to develop it behind closed doors, actually VR runs on Mantle.

D.P. · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:19

humbug said:
They said they are continuing to develop it behind closed doors, actually VR runs on Mantle.

Which proves that Vulkan is nothing like mantle otherwise they would have just used Mantle.

humbug · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:24

D.P. said:
Which proves that Vulkan is nothing like mantle otherwise they would have just used Mantle.

It doesn't prove that it is or isn't, AMD handed the khronos group Mantle as it was at the time, the same Mantle that runs existing Mantle games.

Martini1991 · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:26

humbug said:
They said they are continuing to develop it behind closed doors, actually VR runs on Mantle.

Liquid VR you mean? I know there was no Mantle in use when I used VR

mmj_uk · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:30

Razor Time said:
Personally I think its a shame AMD have binned off Mantle so early as its going to take many years for the pc gaming scene to jump over to DX12. AMD could have kept the branding of Mantle going as another feather to its bow even if it was only for a few games a year a bit like how Nvidia did with phsyx. It was a good selling point for them and unique to their product line. Dropping it was a bad move IMO.

They had no choice developers wouldn't have supported it in the long run and AMD were never going to sponsor more than a few games.

I do find it funny that AMD have just released a bunch of GPU's with Mantle plastered all over them and then 2wks later announced that they've given up on it though.

D.P. · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:36

humbug said:
It doesn't prove that it is or isn't, AMD handed the khronos group Mantle as it was at the time, the same Mantle that runs existing Mantle games.

And since AMD is a member of the Khronos group they could have co toned develop and incorporate any special requirements into Vulkan, but they had to do in a continued Manlte develop. Ultimately that will be a downfall of AMD's VR solution since developers won't go down a vendor specific API.

Nexus18 · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:42

Been ages since I did a frame FPS test for mantle and DX in bf 4 (although the only one with max settings that I did was in SP).... so with the new 15.7 drivers and BF 4 patches, I thought I would try again, MAX settings @ 2560x1080 doing the siege run in an empty server with a ping of 40-50:

Mantle:

Code:

Battlefield 4 - Frame Time Analyzer Report
Logs Selected: All (Merge Logs)
FTS Selected: 2 ms

			Game - FT	CPU - FT	GPU - FT
Average Frame Time:	13.889		13.89		13.13
StdDev (FT): 		1.677		1.716		1.573
Minimum FPS: 		49.764		49.116		52.329
Maximum FPS: 		89.526		106.724		95.012
StdDev (FPS): 		8.624		8.904		9.053

Time Spent:		Game - FT	CPU - FT	GPU - FT
Above 200 FPS:		0%		0%		0%
Above 144 FPS:		0%		0%		0%
Above 120 FPS:		0%		0%		0%
Above 100 FPS:		0%		0.119%		0%
Above 90 FPS:		0%		0.907%		7.804%
Above 60 FPS:		93.89%		93.508%		98.449%
Above 45 FPS:		100%		100%		100%
Above 30 FPS:		100%		100%		100%


Total Data Points Read: 	4190
Total Erred Points Detected: 	1
Total Files Read: 	1

DX:

Code:

Battlefield 4 - Frame Time Analyzer Report
Logs Selected: All (Merge Logs)
FTS Selected: 2 ms

			Game - FT	CPU - FT	GPU - FT
Average Frame Time:	14.429		14.428		13.933
StdDev (FT): 		1.78		1.957		1.708
Minimum FPS: 		44.823		37.154		45.351
Maximum FPS: 		85.288		114.482		88.378
StdDev (FPS): 		8.358		9.157		8.641

Time Spent:		Game - FT	CPU - FT	GPU - FT
Above 200 FPS:		0%		0%		0%
Above 144 FPS:		0%		0%		0%
Above 120 FPS:		0%		0%		0%
Above 100 FPS:		0%		0.246%		0%
Above 90 FPS:		0%		0.761%		0%
Above 60 FPS:		87.448%		86.465%		92.041%
Above 45 FPS:		99.975%		99.681%		100%
Above 30 FPS:		100%		100%		100%


Total Data Points Read: 	4071
Total Erred Points Detected: 	1
Total Files Read: 	1

And frame latencies, frametimelog001 (red line) is mantle:

Separate graphs for DX and mantle:

Mantle:

DX:

Certainly looks like either AMD have sorted the DX issues on their end or/and DICE have improved the AMD DX experience, either way, I will keep with mantle.

Kaapstad · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:42

Sony are still developing Betamax too.

Richdog · 11 Jul 2015 at 17:57

drunkenmaster said:
Uses 'blind loyalty' as an excuse to have a go then says something that only a blind loyal fan to a brand would say, while quoting and attempting to back up the most clearly blindly loyal fanboy on the forum.... the irony is strong in this post.

AMD from the start said this would be a standard. From the first time it was talked about by AMD, I talked about the almost certainty Mantle would be passed off to Khronos or a new group with a similar intent. Lambchop is attempting to suggest Mantle failed by conveniently leaving out that many of us said this was exactly what would happen and was the intention of AMD from the start.

Mantle didn't die and Lambchop is entirely wrong, the outcome of Mantle is literally 100% what I suggested it was from the first time we were aware of it. As is so often Lambchop is attempting to re-write history so he wasn't wrong, which he was.

The only irony I read is on your incessantly long-winded and agitated posts where only you really seem to know what you are ranting at. I don't know Lambchop, I don't read his posts, so there is no bias in what I was saying, I was just agreeing with the sentiment that Mantle had no real longevity.

humbug · 11 Jul 2015 at 18:08

D.P. said:
And since AMD is a member of the Khronos group they could have co toned develop and incorporate any special requirements into Vulkan, but they had to do in a continued Manlte develop. Ultimately that will be a downfall of AMD's VR solution since developers won't go down a vendor specific API.

Its used as a VR development tool, not as a replacement API.
AMD have been working with Crytek on VR, the engine is VR enabled, it borrows bits from Mantle and runs in DX on all vendors, i though you know about this stuff?

I have a playable mini Demo of it right here.

GoogalyMoogaly · 11 Jul 2015 at 18:09

Remember this video?

From about minute 9:00 and for the next 5 minutes or so if you listen to what he says it's basically (in a typically bloated Huddy way) the start of something that they plan to hand off to a 3rd party to make it into a standard.

shankly1985 · 11 Jul 2015 at 18:19

opethdisciple said:
Mantle was a concept.

Never even made it out of Beta.

AMD used it as a marketing tool to sell video cards.

Thats all it was.

Wrong, Bye!

Tip! Go watch video from Dice Devs about Mantle and why they "NOT AMD" Designed Mantle!

AMD Tuck Mantle on because Dice come to them about the API! AMD helped them bring Mantle into the industry!

This is Why FrostBite is the most supported Mantle Engine! Because it was built by the same guys.

Its funny how fast people forgot the history behind Mantle! Quite funny to see most people have no clue and think Mantle was built alone by AMD.

humbug · 11 Jul 2015 at 18:24

GoogalyMoogaly said:
Remember this video?

From about minute 9:00 and for the next 5 minutes or so if you listen to what he says it's basically (in a typically bloated Huddy way) the start of something that they plan to hand off to a 3rd party to make it into a standard.

One of those developers are Crytek, they did stick with Mantle, they are using it to enhance their engine, that i know for a fact.

I think another would be DICE.

humbug · 11 Jul 2015 at 18:49

Does anyone here have a VR headset?

Crytek have kindly provided us with a VR Mini Demo that isn't public, i will ask to make sure but my licence agreement entitles me to all the publications and assets they provide us with.

There isn't much to it but if anyone is interested i can publish it, after making doubly sure i'm entitled to it that is.