Largest US abortion provider caught on tape selling body parts
- Thread starter spudbynight
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Soldato
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Life to me is when the foetus has a slightly functioning brain. Before then, it has no capability of sentient life.
Why? The law was put in place based on scientific evidence.
As for when life starts, personally its when an organism is born...
Edit: another point may be when an organism can survive outside the gestation "chamber" (in this case the human womb).
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Interesting mini-discussion regarding life-cycles.
I think it would be absurd to suggest that the start of a human individual's life cycle is anything other than the moment where a sperm penetrates the egg. That starts a whole chain reaction of micro-biological processes that are the founding blocks of building a new human being.
It would also be absurd to suggest, from my perspective, that an abortion is not ending a human life prematurely. It so obviously is. You are due to have a baby, you have an abortion and as a result no baby human is produced. 2+2=4, really.
The acceptable timing for an abortion is an entirely moral thing. Some people are against it entirely. Some people think it's OK until birth. Without thinking about it too much, I think the latest it should be is the stage before the baby could be extracted (or given birth to) and survive with any reasonable / sensible level or care.
The reasons for having an abortion... that's another kettle of fish all together!
I think it would be absurd to suggest that the start of a human individual's life cycle is anything other than the moment where a sperm penetrates the egg. That starts a whole chain reaction of micro-biological processes that are the founding blocks of building a new human being.
It would also be absurd to suggest, from my perspective, that an abortion is not ending a human life prematurely. It so obviously is. You are due to have a baby, you have an abortion and as a result no baby human is produced. 2+2=4, really.
The acceptable timing for an abortion is an entirely moral thing. Some people are against it entirely. Some people think it's OK until birth. Without thinking about it too much, I think the latest it should be is the stage before the baby could be extracted (or given birth to) and survive with any reasonable / sensible level or care.
The reasons for having an abortion... that's another kettle of fish all together!
We're going round in circles here... The generally agreed consensus of when a foetus is able to survive outside the womb...
Quite frankly cells are alive so life started when the egg (or sperm) was created if you want to be really pedantic.
It all depends on what your definition of life/alive is...TBH sentient is probably the better option here as several people have mentioned.
I get the impression your anti abortion stance is nothing to do with the abortion "industry" and far more to do with some moral objection to terminating a foetus/embryo.
Flawed logic sadly.
It is easy to take your flawed logic and propagate backwards. Using a condom is also prematurely ending a human life. Falling asleep instead of getting it on is also prematurely ending a human life. Jerking your chicken to some skank on porntube is prematurely ending a human life.
Procreation is the start of a chain reaction, but sperm swimming up the fallopian tubes is also nothing more than a 'chain reaction', finding a girl attractive and wanting to have sex is also the start of a "chain reaction'. Going to a club Friday night is also the "start of a chain reaction".
A fetus is just a collection if cells parasitically feeding off the host mother. It has the potential to develop into a human, just like every sperm cell you ejaculated into that Kleenex last is.
An interesting article, with the salient paragraph quoted below.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/
That 24 weeks number comes up again. Coincidental...?
Also an interesting bio at the end... (though not particularly relevant).
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/
That 24 weeks number comes up again. Coincidental...?
Also an interesting bio at the end... (though not particularly relevant).
:/
Without science, you loose at least the following:
- Electricity
- Steel
- Concrete
- Oil
- Transport
- Medicine
Having given up on these in the interests of environmentalism or naturalism, you then get to live without the following:
- Food
- Water
- Heat
- Clothes
- Housing
- Communication
- Literature
- This very forum on which you post such drivel.
We should be thankful to science and to engineering, for they have created our entire way of life. Prayer has nothing on either.
Yeah but as I said why does that matter? It's just a convenient cut-off point that the lawyers have decided. The fact is that if the foetus wasn't aborted it'd probably go on to live a normal happy life.
Quite frankly cells are alive so life started when the egg (or sperm) was created if you want to be really pedantic.
TBH sentient is probably the better option here as several people have mentioned.
I get the impression your anti abortion stance is nothing to do with the abortion "industry" and far more to do with some moral objection to terminating a foetus/embryo.
I've already said as much - it's a quite frankly awful thing to do to an unborn baby. The industrial scale just makes things worse.
To be even without science oil would still be around as would food, water, heat, clothes, housing and communication. Maybe literature as well I assume we don't class stone tablets as science?
I personally feel science is underrated we could do with much more of it if anything.
I won't say my views on abortion as it's likely to upset some
.I kinda made the assumption he was joking, but that may not be the case.
To be even without science oil would still be around as would food, water, heat, clothes, housing and communication. Maybe literature as well I assume we don't class stone tablets as science?
I personally feel science is underrated we could do with much more of it if anything.
I won't say my views on abortion as it's likely to upset some
To be pedantic electricity also exists naturally.
The point is we couldn't extract oil, we could grow enough food to feed us, or transport it to us, or keep it fresh enough for consumption, supply water to drink.
Even cave men of 100,000 years ago used a lot of science and engineering, smelting metals, making hunting weapons etc.
Not totally against it no.
Ok, well my point is that prior to the abortion cutoff the foetus (not baby) is not sentient, cannot live outside the womb and is to all intent and purposes a parasitic growth.
As the article above states after around 6 months the foetus can survive outside the womb and may have some sentience (and a functioning brain). That's the reason the cutoff is there. It is slightly arbitrary but the limit is based on what we know about embryo and foetal development (which is why there is only a few weeks difference between most/all abortion limits country to country).
A moral argument can be had either way (pro choice/pro life) but the cutoff is based on the scientific understanding (and probably a bit of politics admittedly - unfortunately that gets everywhere...). Unfortunately religion gets in the way a lot here - as shown by searching on this subject, there is a lot of wading through pro life/pro choice websites before you find anything actually scientific.
Yes, the foetus/embryo could develop into a baby, but it could also die in the womb, or die at birth. It's another arbitrary definition. If the egg is alive does that mean women that have their ovaries removed are also killing an unborn baby? All of those eggs are potentially going to be a human.
There is also the aspect regarding fertilised eggs which don't implant & are discarded, I assume these pro-lifers consider that the death of a human being yes?.
It's an embryo, or does it only count when it implants into the womb?, if so then it's an arbitrary cut off & it undermines your argument about definitive lines regarding life - if not then its likely that you have likely multiple dead brothers & sisters. I have a feeling they do not see it this way either, a position from ignorance of the science behind it & one based on historic attitudes regarding a desire to control the reproductive cycles of women.
It's no coincidence that religious types tend to be so strongly against it, as stated earlier - this isn't about life being 'sacred', I see some appalling views on the treatment of other human beings from the very posters (foreigners, gay people etc). If life is sacred then why on earth do they treat so many others so badly?.
"STOP ABORTIONS LIFE IS SACRED"
"STOP FOREIGN AID"
"PEOPLE IN AFRICA SHOULD BE LEFT TO DIE"
"DON'T LET BROWN PEOPLE INTO THE COUNTRY TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THEMSELVES"
"I'M A CHRISTIAN* LOL"
To be completely honest, I don't buy it at all.
(Note - not all Christians are like that, just enough to find them nauseating)
It's an embryo, or does it only count when it implants into the womb?, if so then it's an arbitrary cut off & it undermines your argument about definitive lines regarding life - if not then its likely that you have likely multiple dead brothers & sisters. I have a feeling they do not see it this way either, a position from ignorance of the science behind it & one based on historic attitudes regarding a desire to control the reproductive cycles of women.
It's no coincidence that religious types tend to be so strongly against it, as stated earlier - this isn't about life being 'sacred', I see some appalling views on the treatment of other human beings from the very posters (foreigners, gay people etc). If life is sacred then why on earth do they treat so many others so badly?.
"STOP ABORTIONS LIFE IS SACRED"
"STOP FOREIGN AID"
"PEOPLE IN AFRICA SHOULD BE LEFT TO DIE"
"DON'T LET BROWN PEOPLE INTO THE COUNTRY TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THEMSELVES"
"I'M A CHRISTIAN* LOL"
To be completely honest, I don't buy it at all.
(Note - not all Christians are like that, just enough to find them nauseating)
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That's changing the deal! You said "find a scientist" who disagrees, I am scientist and thus I've found a scientist (myself) who disagrees
Thank you for teaching me today's lesson.
The chocolate teapot is yours!
Please be so kind as to forward your name & address, your bank account details, your mothers maiden name and your PIN number.
