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AMD likely to win Nintendo NX and continue console dominance

andybird123 said:
Because I'm not talking about shadow maps. Your obviously out of date on what modern desktop GPU's can do.
Same for lighting. Gpu's can already do realtime double bounce lighting effects without faking.
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The thing holding them back though is the api. so hopefully will see better lighting effects come out with dx12.
considering that ashes has point lights on every particle effect. and most dx11 games only have up to 10 real lights in a scene.
 
llamadal said:
The Wii u is a perfect compliment to a PC. I sold both my ps4 and xbone. You clearly have not used it.

For what it's worth, every game on the Wii u has worked perfectly without issue, can't say the same for the other console's.

Anyway, back on topic, bidding low to win the business isn't market dominance and tbh the power the next gen consoles have is pretty poor, hope they do better in the future if they continue to develop this path
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I own all the consoles including the wii u and have owned every Nintendo console since the nes. Please don't assume. Yes it's sold 10 million but it was a competitor to the last gen of consoles and month on month figures are terrible. This isn't just my opinion but one shared by a hell of a lot of people...die hard fans included
 
TNA said:
Yeah, many people took their word when the CEO was holding a wooden GPU and later selling gimped graphics cards that advertised wrongly. lol.
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But,but Steve Jobs said so? Oh wait wrong company.

Got to say JHH had more muscles than Steve Jobs ever had - not hard to see the bromances hardware enthusiasts on forums want with him.

One cool dude indeed!:cool:
 
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I think the fact that consoles are reasonably cheap is a good indicator that there's probably not a greal deal of money to be had being a parts supplier. Having said that, fortunes have been made from selling lots of basic things, but usually when it's a new idea
 
I'd certainly like to see Nintendo back in the mix, they have been fantastic innovators over the years. If AMD get their gpu in NX then great, because we still need them in the game to encourage some form of competition.
 
nashathedog said:
Perfect for there in car systems?
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Not sure about perfect but yes it works in that environment.


andybird123 said:
Because I'm not talking about shadow maps. Your obviously out of date on what modern desktop GPU's can do.
Same for lighting. Gpu's can already do realtime double bounce lighting effects without faking.
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Most games don’t seem to do that and the ones that do, do it at a massive performance cost with a massive amount of development time. As for 2 bounce most considering high quality renderers to need 20 rays per pixiel as a minimum. I have seen no one in the professional world say anything but ray tracing is vastly superior. At GDC it was all about ray tracing and how much better it is for less performance cost.


D.P. said:
A games console needs a CPU, that is a fairly fundamental part of it!
Having a separate CPU will increase costs, which is why the consoles all went with integrated APUs this time. Nintendo could go for a separate discrete GPU but will need a dedicated CPU, if they are going to to that then why should they choose Power VR over Nvidia or AMD?

I think you have absolutely no idea what ray-tracing is!
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I still don’t see the problem the company behind PowerVR ship around 800 million CPU’s a year and have done CPU’s on consoles before. They can do an integrated single chip with CPU, GPU and everything else.

So we have company that has over a billion chips shipped a year has done consoles before and has high end designs for next gen consoles. Nintendo was looking at them as a possibility. The company behind PowerVR also said a large new tier 1 company has taken out a license. So why are so many people completely ignoring them or going they stand no chance?

It wouldn’t surprise me to find out AMD won but I don’t see why it’s very likely and that no one else stands a chance. What is it that makes it so likely that AMD has won that there is no chance for anyone else?

As for Ray tracing what have I got wrong? Why do you think I have no idea?
 
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As I said, looking at the demos available from powervr, the overall quality compared with demos from desktop are similar in terms of shadows and lighting but with massivley poorer textures and objects. I didn't say this was already in released games now as those would have started development 3 years ago. But that is the problem here, this powervr hardware is a techdemo so probably a year away from real hardware, then another two years to be in something useable, in which time frame you'll have DX12 and another gen of desktop hardware or two.

You cant say that its comparable to look at prototype hardware and techdemo software on one side and restrain yourself to retail hardware and software on the other. Its a nonsense comparison.
 
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The poorer textures and objects in some demos is because its a short tech demo to focus on one area. Its not a demo to look at pretty as possible in all areas but to show the difference in single features.

Anyway I still don’t agree and the professionals don’t seem to agree with what you said seem going by GDC. If what you say is true why would major game engines like Unity adopt PowerVR ray tracing for game development and to improve shadows and lights?


“this powervr hardware is a techdemo so probably a year away from real hardware,”
That was last year. The real reference platform is in silicon now with software developers working on it.
 
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Going by past efforts, when powervr present working hardware, its a year before it makes it into an actual on the shelf product, so please, tell me where I can buy one?

This is the same company that said that series 5 to series 6 would be a hundred times performance increase, when it was more like 2x, and 5 years ago said that they would have desktop rivalling performance within 3 years.

It is "impressive" to have shadows and lighting on a mobile device equal to desktop, but it isn't going to replace them. It isn't this massively disruptive technology that is going to replace all other gaming gpus overnight.

Either nvidia and AMD will licence this for a few pennies a chip, or they'll find a way of doing the same thing without the performance penalty associated with past efforts, which comparing techdemos it seems they already have.
 
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Nintendo have an opportunity here to leapfrog the other two consoles by making their new console 4K / UHD capable.
 
varkanoid said:
The Wii U just didnt take on like its predecessor. Whether its a failure can be argued but its only sold 9.2 million units upto Jan this year. It was a success in Asia but in Europe and USA, meh.



http://www.polygon.com/2015/1/28/7928919/nintendo-wii-u-sold-total-2012-fiscal-results

Its the other markets that Nintendo are in that have made it huge profits. Trouble is Nintendo have lost a lot of fans. It will be difficult for them to get on level terms with MS and Sony with any future console unless it has a mega wow factor that the other two cant match. VR for instance. Now VR with Wii type 'glove' remotes. Hmmmm. Where's my groinal attachment ?
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nintendos biggest issue is the wii was known for a lack of games. nearly all of them could have been flash games played in a browser just gimmicks
 
andybird123 said:
“Going by past efforts, when powervr present working hardware, its a year before it makes it into an actual on the shelf product, so please, tell me where I can buy one?”
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The old generation 1 and gen 2 pure ray tracing chips have been on the market ages and since discontinued. The 3rd generation hybrid chip has only just gone in silicon and hasn’t entered mass production. Why would you expect to buy the current silicon now? It’s only just entered first silicon this month.



andybird123 said:
"This is the same company that said that series 5 to series 6 would be a hundred times performance increase, when it was more like 2x, and 5 years ago said that they would have desktop rivalling performance within 3 years.”
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Where are you getting only a x2 increase from! The relative graphic performance has increased by well over x100. How much depends on which area you are looking at.

http://s15.postimg.org/msyai05iy/Power_VR.jpg how can you say they have not hit that goal?

I don’t remember them ever saying desktop rivalling performance within 3 years. Where have you got that from?



andybird123 said:
“which comparing techdemos it seems they already have.”
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I have yet to see any evidence of that. All I see is you saying the opposite to what all the high end GPU Engineers are saying at GDC. Even NVidia are on the same page as Imagination. Both NVidia and Imagination/PowerVR Engineers stood up and gave separate presentations on ray tracing shadow and lights being better and fixing a bunch of problems. Both talk about a Hybid solution not pure ray tracing.



andybird123 said:
“It is "impressive" to have shadows and lighting on a mobile device equal to desktop, but it isn't going to replace them. It isn't this massively disruptive technology that is going to replace all other gaming gpus overnight.”
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It is not equal to todays desktops it well beyond todays desktop with a number of advantages. It’s not going replace all other gaming GPU overnight who ever said that? All I said is it’s should be a disruptive technology. NVidia seem to agree even though they are a few years behind. AMD seems to have completely missed the boat.

Going back on topic. PowerVR is a part of Imagination. Both AMD and Imagination have experience with console CPU’s and GPU’s. Both companies have suitable designs for next gen consoles, both company’s got approached by Nintendo for a solution for a next gen console, both company’s announced a major licence deal with an unknown company. So why are we so sure it’s very likely AMD won? What information am I missing?
 
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Common sense and logic. Exactly what console experience are you referring to for Imagination. Scaling up chips is a VERY different prospect to scaling down chips. Having memory controllers and general connections across the core capable of handling very high bandwidth can be scaled down easily. If you design something for ultra low power and low throughput, scaling it up becomes effectively impossible, you need to make something new.

PowerVR haven't made a higher end graphics chip since the Dreamcast chip afaik. The majority of handheld stuff they've done is effectively mobile level and no where near 'next gen console' level(be that X1/ps4 or the actual next gen from them). Likewise CPU, what CPU's do they currently make that are suitable for high performance?

Lastly, Imagination themselves stated quite specifically they see this latest chip as a good chip for LOW COST ANDROID CONSOLES.... which we've had forever. It's effectively taking the best tablet chip and sticking it in a stick or set top box and shipping it with a wireless controller... that isn't even comparable to the PS4, Xbox one or even a Wii U, let alone suitable for a Wii U successor.

What chip do they have that is suitable for the next gen console. In fact what SOC are PowerVR shipping today, I'm unaware of any. Selling IP and having their gpu's paired with other companies CPU IP amongst thousands of other bits that make up a SOC isn't remotely comparable.

Imagination and powerVR ship and have IP for nothing at the scale of the AMD console APUs, nothing remotely close.

What Imagination themselves are saying this next gpu IP they have they see being used by say Samsung/Qualcomm/whoever else as part of those companies SOC and shipping in android console boxes, as many of their previous gpu ips have also been used in exactly the same way.
 
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