Doctors and the 7 Day Week

tamzzy · 21 Jul 2015 at 21:57

Windle said:
What she's not mentioned is outside her salary she'll get:
Saturday uplift
Sunday uplift
Night shift uplift

doesn't quite work like that for doctors.

im guessing janice is a ct1/2 in anaesthesia. she'll probably be 40% banded, due to the hours and sociable-ness of her roster.
her take home pay should be around £2400 per month.
im guessing an average doc should be spending £300 per month on fees/courses/exams - so that'll leave her with £2100 per month

Buddy · 21 Jul 2015 at 21:58

alx said:
True, but typically doctors wouldn't respond in this way - most if them understand what they got themselves into. It's what Hunt said about weekend working that has riled some of them up and caused these defensive comments to prove a point. Is it OTT? Probably, but that's sometimes what you need to do to get a point across.

The point is doctors already work weekends.... Hunt suggesting they don't.

With regards to routine non urgent issues Hunt hasn't explained how he plan's cover the obvious deficit that will be created in the week when those doctors are pinched for the weekend.

What about all the other allied health professions required for routine non urgent duties?

Uther · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:02

I'd have more sympathy if my wife hadn't been admitted to a ward last Thursday, with a lung 3/4 full of water, and turfed out along with everyone else on the ward Friday afternoon, and the ward closed. I assume they don't have the staff?
Back to the GP this week trying to sort it out. 24/7 my arse.
NHS. Some of it is fantastic, some of it is certainly not.

heeeed · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:02

I think his suggestion the profession needs to bring back sense of vocation and professionalism has been found very offensive by all, as I think that doctors consider they have these in spades. Most doctors work very hard from a very early stage. They don't expect to be paid the highest in society but they do feel they should be paid reasonably for the level of skill and knowledge and the level of responsibility that they shoulder. They do accept that their are significant sacrifices in their career but that the flip side is that they are largely valued by society. to be deliberately bad mouthed and undermined continually by the government and it's media outlets has significantly eroded good will over the last few years, and this is very clearly having an effect on recruitment and retention of doctors

Also the suggestion that we don't already have a 7 day nhs is wrong and that also is something that grates hence the #imatworkjeremy tweets.

There is also the complete misrepresentation of the data about death rates and making conclusions that aren't correct. It's simply not an accurate representation of the facts about death rates following admissions at weekend as they are not homogenous populations that are admitted, even before you allow for the fact that the death rates are based on the following 30 days. In actual fact Wednesday was the day most people died.

His speech was an attack on the profession and he bizarrely wants to set up a system that can neither be afforded at current levels let alone the potential future issues in funding and I think most people don't even see it as improving clinical outcomes anyway. Most in medical profession think he is either at best a moron who doesn't understand the systems he is looking at, or more commonly now that he is cynically undermining the nhs and adapting its practices for selling off. I don't believe that the government want the nhs long term in even slightly it's current form as they feel it will become unfundable and they aren't willing to engage the population with the debates needed about reducing demand or increase in taxation to pay for what they believe the population demand.

ScoTTyBEEE · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:07

More older people vote than younger people. More older people use the NHS than younger people. It will remain as it is for a long time yet.

What they need to do is charge a fee for a doctors appointment, only small, say £10 and this will stop the same persistent offenders clogging it up with pointless 'illnesses'

Charge anyone that is there as a result of intoxication, if they can afford to get intoxicated they can afford to pay for mistakes as a result of that.

Stop vanity plastic surgery like boob and nose jobs, if it bothers someone that much then save up and pay for it to be corrected.

Allow euthanasia for people that want it. Stop wasting money keeping people alive that don't want to be.

thep02 · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:09

phonemonkey said:
I think the point she made was that for similar money she could have forgone 5 years at university with all it's associated debts, not have to work nightshifts, 12+ shifts, on call duty, or have responsiblity for the care of some very sick people.

This government are destroying the NHS and what was left of our morale.

Yeah but some of their mates are gona make a fortune from the resulting sell off and it will keep the yanks happy so silver linings all round.

MrMoonX · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:13

MPs 10% payrise NHS workers fixed at 1%

There is a reason everyone is so fed up with the government and its not going to change. Jeremy Hunt is an idiot who hasn't worked a 12hr shift in his life

Xordium · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:14

It's always been a 7 day service for those that needed it. But you have to let people have breaks and days off or they burn out. When you get to the top of the specialities there just aren't enough of you to cover each other adequately.

I used to work 7 days a week from 0630 to 2200 and I'd get called most nights too.

Don't be shocked when everyone just upsticks off to other countries or quits. Most of my mates have done that now there is 1 left out of our group of 12 some ten years ago. Out of that group of 12 (all in their 40's) we've had 5 have cancer, 2 with neurodegenerative disease and 3 of the 4 women had failed IVF - read into that what you will. I am glad I got out when I did.

balky12 said:
Someone this clever arguing over starting salaries... Tube driver will only ever earn £50k a year. Pret manager will only ever earn £40k a year. Doctor... well... a lot more.

Think you want to look at the actual pay because it's not a lot more unless you've got into a consultant position. You do want staff in hospitals in cities I take it?

heeeed · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:22

I'm not convinced that charging will be a panacea, but I am moving towards some degree of copayment. I think it's often however misunderstood and assumed that vast swathes of nhs time and money is just used by idiots who don't need anything much. The reality is increasingly very complex patients with multiple medical issues and juggling these to keep them well is what uses much of the time.

I do think that making the routine service 24/7 is bizarre though and if people choose weekends to be seen that they should pay for this as a top up fee, but that they can still be seen free at point of use midweek. I honestly can't see how it can otherwise be funded.

The idea that thousands of boob jobs and nose jobs are being funded is also very far from the truth. In my locality I have to apply for individual funding for things that to me seem very necessary, but if they don't meet strict criteria will be refused. There is no way funding would be allowed in my area for cosmetic procedures. The nearest to cosmetic procedures is removal of moles and lumps by your GP and I'm quite certain funding for this will be removed fairly soon

balky12 · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:22

Xordium said:
Think you want to look at the actual pay because it's not a lot more unless you've got into a consultant position. You do want staff in hospitals in cities I take it?

My post was referring to 'glass ceilings'. A fully qualified doctors 'glass ceiling' is certainly not £40k...

Like a few others have echoed; never met a poor doctor.

Buddy · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:26

Minor surgery by GPs for moles etc is only done if lesion is symptomatic - ie it's catching or recurrent infections ...

Never done for cosmetic reasons

heeeed · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:30

But you have probably met doctors who have a very poor work life balance though. Hourly rate can be surprisingly poor also. We don't want to be making fortunes, but we do want to be reasonably rewarded. Vocation is not simply a word which means enslave someone and treat poorly simply because what they do they feel is valuable to society

Xordium · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:35

balky12 said:
Like a few others have echoed; never met a poor doctor.

Haven't met many then have you.

I certainly never had much money back in the day. I had to live within 30 minutes of the place I worked that meant I had to live central London - smack bang in the centre. Not even a consultants salary get you far there.

Yes, we had money coming in but the money going out was frankly ridiculous.

Which was why I made my choice to get out. Others will do the same.

Just don't bitch if you or your dearest get ill and the service isn't there for you. The service these days is pretty poor I've seen it - it's certainly friendlier and appears more friendly but that actual care (which the layperson can't tell whether it is good or bad) is getting worse.

And the well off who think they can solve it by going private lol let's see how well that one works out for you ...

People are getting the health service they deserve tbh. The public knew what would happen and they couldn't be bothered to or chose not to vote against it. So it's obviously no issue for them.

heeeed · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:36

I think you'll find the vast majority of GP minor surgery is in reality cosmetic, but that's beside the point. It is the only cosmetic thing on NHS

SpeedFreak · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:37

I assume a manager in pret will work on a weekend quite frequently surely?

People get ill on weekends therefore NHS should be structured to provide equal care 7 days a week. How doctors, nurses and support staff should be paid for this is a difficult question to answer.

Xordium · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:39

The 7 day care is there already. People have to have time off you know. You do actually want people to work don't you? Are you willing to support the massively increased cost and wastage of resources that would occur. All questions people are conveniently skipping. For many people this is directly relevant to it's not a case of just getting someone else to do the job. There isn't someone else to do the job - people don't have that skillset.

Rroff · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:49

The NHS is one of the few things we have done that is truly the mark of an advanced civilisation and something we should all aim to protect and support - sadly short sightedness and greed will eventually see it destroyed.

balky12 · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:51

Xordium said:
Haven't met many then have you.

I certainly never had much money back in the day. I had to live within 30 minutes of the place I worked that meant I had to live central London - smack bang in the centre. Not even a consultants salary get you far there.

Yes, we had money coming in but the money going out was frankly ridiculous.

Which was why I made my choice to get out. Others will do the same.

Just don't bitch if you or your dearest get ill and the service isn't there for you. The service these days is pretty poor I've seen it - it's certainly friendlier and appears more friendly but that actual care (which the layperson can't tell whether it is good or bad) is getting worse.

And the well off who think they can solve it by going private lol let's see how well that one works out for you ...

People are getting the health service they deserve tbh. The public knew what would happen and they couldn't be bothered to or chose not to vote against it. So it's obviously no issue for them.

You're a jolly chap. Sound so bitter with life.

I know 3 doctors (2 family friends and one friend) and one GP (friends brother), all doing quite well for themselves, especially the GP. Not wiping their arses with 50's mind you (except the GP) but late twenties and on ~£40k (my friend) isn't a destitute situation. Granted it's not many, but 4/4 I know are doing fine, not struggling with rent or putting food on the table. Far from it.

Sure there are cases, but you get people on 6 figure salaries struggling to make ends meet for one reason or another.

Just don't bitch if you or your dearest get ill and the service isn't there for you. The service these days is pretty poor I've seen it - it's certainly friendlier and appears more friendly but that actual care (which the layperson can't tell whether it is good or bad) is getting worse.

Deary me. There is your jolly side again. Plenty of my nearest and dearest have been ill thanks. Just like any where there are good and bad people at their jobs. 'I've seen it', what is that suppose to even mean? Believe it or not in my 26 years I have come into contact with the NHS. But thanks for the heads up.

And the well off who think they can solve it by going private lol let's see how well that one works out for you ...

Oooops. There is your bitter side again. Guess I am 'well off', well according to you any way. I have private healthcare. Works a treat for me. No problems. Never had too many problems with the NHS either.

I hope things improve for you any ways.

heeeed · 21 Jul 2015 at 22:53

The 7 day emergency care is up and running and always has been. I don't see how having all other services running is useful 7 days a week and it most certainly isn't sustainable on a funding point of view. If you get ill at the weekend or evening you will be seen if needed. It might be out of hours GP, it might be A+E , it might need admission, but you will most certainly be seen

heeeed · 21 Jul 2015 at 23:00

balky12 said:
Not wiping their arses with 50's mind you (except the GP)

/yawn. I presume you know how much he earns and how many hours he does? I presume he spends 3 days a week on the golf course and tells you how much he loves his job fleecing the public purse. Or are you simply basing this on a daily fail headline?