Paedophile Sex Ring in Norwich broken

[Xordium]

lets forget about the topic

The topic was never about the specific cases mentioned. It was specifically framed, from the opening, as an apologist stance towards ethnic groups where there is a demonstrable higher occurrence of abuse.

I don't think these sex rings are anything new to Britain. It's just these people are not as good as covering it up as some of the old guard.

Surely the point of the thread should be that any covering up or failure to investigate is fundamentally wrong. It is the projection of power that allows these people to get away with their crimes for so long. Whether that be the power derived from political office, media connections and financial ties, or the ability to damn any investigation for being inherently driver by racial/cultural bias. Or even as I highlighted from the off the social acceptance of the culpability of men in abuse when it is demonstrable across all cases of abuse to show the majority of abuse is perpetrated by women.

Attacking racial groups for political point scoring over such issues is wrong and counter-productive but so is the protectionism. Both sides would be well advised to note their actions actually give impetus to the opposing view.

In my opinion all claims of child abuse should be fully investigated, believed and sufficiently resourced and never impeded by the intelligence services, connected parties or the need to demonstrate political awareness.

That should be what the thread is about. Why are some groups not challenged or allowed to be challenged - you can't implement things like elmarko said until we actually are able to accept where the problems are occurring.

I have no problem with using facts to target resources at cultural areas in which abuse is more likely to occur.

The issue is when these facts are taken as justification for wider, sweeping racist generalisations (which happens pretty often on this forum).

Neither have I as I've detailed there.

 

[Tefal]

If you think that suggesting people consider methods which actually reduce child abuse is point-scoring then fair enough, but I'll have to disagree.

Personally, I'd advocate social changes which are likely to prevent further children from being abused in the first place, but hey - that's just me.

Personally, I think writing in that condescending style where you say something that sounds good but is actually meaningless and just to put someone down point scoring, but hey- that's just me.

 

[elmarko]

Personally, I think writing in that condescending style where you say something that sounds good but is actually meaningless and just to put someone down point scoring, but hey- that's just me.

But it isn't meaningless is it.

Advocating using facts & data to resolve social problems as opposed to 'moral outrage' is very important. If pointing out this simple but often missed concept is done in a patronising condescending way it doesn't invalidate the point, neither does it mean it's point scoring.

Sometimes people need to be patronised to highlight the immaturity of their point of view.

Neither have I as I've detailed there.

I don't believe you to be racist, neither do I believe you to have a 'hidden agenda' under the guise of facts as many posters do.

The issue is, the typical posters on this forum the second abuse story's come up - do use these occasions to justify far wider & sweeping statements about the nature of certain ethnic & social groups. An increased propensity within a population may still be a small minority.

This makes any rational discussion about harmful cultural practices within certain communities impossible to have without it being hijacked beyond reason.

 

[Xordium]

So to clear this up elmarko for the benefit of everyone. That there are demographics that are shown to have disproportionately higher levels of abuse it would be fair to target these areas disproportionately? That is what you said above - correct? What you are saying is that these groups are also getting a level of public abuse too. Which is correct but I guess maybe that is frustration that the former is not happening. You tend to not see kick Sikhs out campaigns or kick Buddhists out campaigns. Maybe that is telling?

 

[RDM]

Sometimes people need to be patronised to highlight the immaturity of their point of view.

Speaking as a teacher, no really they don't.

 

[elmarko]

Speaking as a teacher, no really they don't.

Good thing it's not my job to educate the average forum user then isn't it.

If you have anything to add apart from a quickly becoming tiresome nitpicking of the use of tone then please feel free.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

But it isn't meaningless is it.

Advocating using facts & data to resolve social problems as opposed to 'moral outrage' is very important. If pointing out this simple but often missed concept is done in a patronising condescending way it doesn't invalidate the point, neither does it mean it's point scoring.

Objective "facts & data" are rather illusive when it comes to social issues. There is no scientific method when it comes to studying people, you cannot recreate the sum of a persons experience to experiment with.

Sure we can measure things like incomes, the ethnicity of criminals, education levels etc. But how any of the relates to a population group, never mind an individual is very hard to say.

 

[Xordium]

I don't believe you to be racist, neither do I believe you to have a 'hidden agenda' under the guise of facts as many posters do.

Thank you. I've had my usual accusation per thread so I was hoping not to get another!

The issue is, the typical posters on this forum the second abuse story's come up - do use these occasions to justify far wider & sweeping statements about the nature of certain ethnic & social groups. An increased propensity within a population may still be a small minority.

Basic risk management though is it not - tackling repeated small events and unlikely but profound events.

This makes any rational discussion about harmful cultural practices within certain communities impossible to have without it being hijacked beyond reason.

Yes, but that impossibility comes from both sides. Surely the onus is on the protection of the child and therefore the sensibilities of the group collective come secondary. That is the fundamental ethical goal of worldwide legislation since Nuremberg is it not - the rights of the individual over the collective (I personally disagree with the notion but I accept it is enshrined in international law).

 

[Dis86]

Glad they got the scum, interesting to see yet again that women were involved. Also this story proves all those people who say it's only the Asian criminals that get written about in newspapers wrong.

 

[Xordium]

It is interesting that people from both the bashing and the apologist parties always call the offenders scum. Now it is a heinous thing to do to another human and a very vulnerable human at that. Because they did the act that followed the urge I can understand this sentiment, however:

Now I would ask a few questions:

Are people who just have the urges and desire scum too?
Is demonising the whole group of people who have sexual urges towards children helpful?
Some say damning a racial group for a minority of offenders from their midst is wrong - would they say damning a whole group, of preference, based upon actions of any offenders is also wrong?
Do you think the demonising of actual offenders discourages those who would seek help from actually seeking it?

Just food for thought.

 

[elmarko]

Thank you. I've had my usual accusation per thread so I was hoping not to get another!

Basic risk management though is it not - tackling repeated small events and unlikely but profound events.

From a risk management aspect it's usually done with a mind to put in place processes or systems to manage or resolve the issues. While the recognition of culturally difference is indeed valid for determining the propensity of given events.

Usually this is done with a mind to do something about it.

Yes, but that impossibility comes from both sides. Surely the onus is on the protection of the child and therefore the sensibilities of the group collective come secondary. That is the fundamental ethical goal of worldwide legislation since Nuremberg is it not - the rights of the individual over the collective (I personally disagree with the notion but I accept it is enshrined in international law).

I agree we shouldn't be worrying about offensive so much when individuals are suffering enormously - but saying that, I don't really believe in most cases that people actually care that much about the children either.

For many these events are a soundboard to parade outrage or an excuse to bash minorities.

Really a real debate about the risk factors associated with certain cultural social beliefs & the propensity for child abuse would be better suited in speakers corner.

 

[Xordium]

Speaker's Corner is dead and just attracts kedge into the threads and they always devolve down to removal of assets by violence, reasonable consequence from incorrect decision making, etc.

Discussing things in the margins removes the majority from the debate thereby ensuring they themselves keep their thinking marginal.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

Right so its ok for other people to bring it up in other threads clearly blaming Islam / culture / whatever

No. Who said it is? Other than you, I mean.

 

[bitslice]

This makes any rational discussion about harmful cultural practices within certain communities impossible to have without it being hijacked beyond reason.

Just to suggest a reason why this went on for so long and continues today:

In my community if I see something going on or hear something I am very likely to report it to the Police, if a relative has a dodgy boyfriend I'm also very likely to pass on what I know.
This I see as my duty to protect the community for the sake of everyone.

My impression of muslim communities is that they are primarily interested in their families name and their social standing, that if their family is doing wrong then they fear the shame it might bring so they hush it up.
That their own children can go off to ISIS while they feign innocence seems to be a result of this. The Police are never invited in to help and yet somehow get the blame.


Unfortunately what drives this exploitation is possibly related to a restricted outlet with women, if you are not allowed to date within your own community, then someone else's community is fair game if you see them as easy.

They are clearly confused by western sexual moires and presume that female openness is implying sexually available rather than freedom of expression.

I can't see these cultural traits changing any time soon unless there is a massive push to educate such isolationist communities.

 

[elmarko]

Integration is critically important & cultural practiced which are harmful should be challenged. Saying that so should sweeping generalisations aimed at minorities or general bigotry.

These don't aid in integration, if anything they isolate people further.

 

[Xordium]

Integration is critically important & cultural practiced which are harmful should be challenged. Saying that so should sweeping generalisations aimed at minorities or general bigotry.

These don't aid in integration, if anything they isolate people further.

That cuts both ways though it was the sweeping generalisations, regarding any criticism being inherently racist, that led to people being afraid to challenge in multiple cases thereby allowing the abuse to continue.

 

[Spektor]

When is the white community going to formally condemn this?

 

[Dis86]

Integration is critically important & cultural practiced which are harmful should be challenged. Saying that so should sweeping generalisations aimed at minorities or general bigotry.

These don't aid in integration, if anything they isolate people further.

People can and do choose not to integrate.

I don't know if I've mentioned before on here how I dated a Bangladeshi girl. Her father had lived in this country for ten years before she was born and didn't speak a word of English. I chose to stop seeing her after she was threatened with either being sent to Bangladesh or with violence by her father and male cousins because she was dating a white non muslim. Never met her mum.

I've also mentioned how I was subjected to racist bullying in school by a group of black kids - they chose to only integrate with their own race. These were third and fourth generation kids who still didn't integrate in areas where there were huge collections of different cultures. White, Jewish, black African, black Caribbean, Asian. It was strange because we went from a school where my close group of friends consisted of an Israeli Jewish child, a third generation Jamaican child, a second generation Indian and a second generation Pakistani as well as me. We were all completely inseparable. Come high school however and it was just an utterly impossible change. I still remained good friends with Savraj who was Indian and Nikhil who was Pakistani but the others purely associated with their own races/cultures.

 

[Xordium]

When is the white community going to formally condemn this?

Poll please mods:

1) Born stupid
2) Worked at being stupid.

 

[Threepwood]

Poll please mods:

1) Born stupid
2) Worked at being stupid.

I thought he was simply being satirical.

No need to personally attack him, insinuating that he is below average intelligence.