Breaking News: Shooting on train between Amsterdam and Paris

Soldato
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I get fed up of people reacting with the same old "big-bad-West" comment. It's short sighted and incredibly ignorant of events that occurred in the ME either much longer ago than modern history, or if more recently, nothing to do with the West at all. I can forgive people for thinking it's all the wests fault, after all, if they're not willing to dig out a book and instead rely soley on the rhetoric that is churned up on the web then what chance do they have of understanding the situation anyway?

First we must acknowledge that Islamism is as much (if not more) a response to the failure of Arab leaders to deliver meaningful outcomes to their people, than it is to any Western intervention. Further, Arab people often lacked opportunities for political participation. Arab citizens therefore turn to mosques as public spaces for political discussion. As a result religion became the language of politics and of political change. Islam is intertwined in their political proceeds. It's like the Catholic church domineering all things political here.

Also, post-colonialism failed Arab middle classes, as the ruling elite continued to hold power and wealth, dictatorships and oppression rules supreme. We had quick economic growth in emerging Gulf states which increased the influence of conservative Muslim governments. At the same time the expansion of the oil-based Gulf economy brought about uneven development, the response to which was growing support for Islamism as a tool of expression for internal grievances (politics).

We must also consider that the effects of cultural erosion and globalisation have resulted in what is pretty much a Muslim identity crisis.

Add to all this civilisations that have experienced large power vacuums and it's somewhat disingenuous and naive to consider the entire situation as a simple as a "West Vs Islam" scenario. That is blinkered.




After this little rant of mine the point has already been quite aptly put..... this guy in the news was from MOROCCO. A westernised and very stable country, close to home and free of this so called Christian Crusade we are apparently conducting across the world right now. To state the Westerners are to blame just doesn't make any sense.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
26,131
I get fed up of people reacting with the same old "big-bad-West" comment. It's short sighted and incredibly ignorant of events that occurred in the ME either much longer ago than modern history, or if more recently, nothing to do with the West at all. I can forgive people for thinking it's all the wests fault, after all, if they're not willing to dig out a book and instead rely soley on the rhetoric that is churned up on the web then what chance do they have of understanding the situation anyway?

First we must acknowledge that Islamism is as much (if not more) a response to the failure of Arab leaders to deliver meaningful outcomes to their people, than it is to any Western intervention. Further, Arab people often lacked opportunities for political participation. Arab citizens therefore turn to mosques as public spaces for political discussion. As a result religion became the language of politics and of political change. Islam is intertwined in their political proceeds. It's like the Catholic church domineering all things political here.

Also, post-colonialism failed Arab middle classes, as the ruling elite continued to hold power and wealth, dictatorships and oppression rules supreme. We had quick economic growth in emerging Gulf states which increased the influence of conservative Muslim governments. At the same time the expansion of the oil-based Gulf economy brought about uneven development, the response to which was growing support for Islamism as a tool of expression for internal grievances (politics).

We must also consider that the effects of cultural erosion and globalisation have resulted in what is pretty much a Muslim identity crisis.

Add to all this civilisations that have experienced large power vacuums and it's somewhat disingenuous and naive to consider the entire situation as a simple as a "West Vs Islam" scenario. That is blinkered.




After this little rant of mine the point has already been quite aptly put..... this guy in the news was from MOROCCO. A westernised and very stable country, close to home and free of this so called Christian Crusade we are apparently conducting across the world right now. To state the Westerners are to blame just doesn't make any sense.

I do actually agree with a lot of this. However, 'The West' can be pointed to as having interfered in the Middle East so it makes an easy scapegoat, and it's something that Mosques can then use as a reason for why a bunch of guys in their early 20s have the quality of life that they lead and to be in a position to group a lot of them together where they can all realise that they all feel the same way. If there was no Western influence then it wouldn't be as easy to make this association since they might have to blame their own governments which could end quite badly depending on the country they are in.

Blaming 'The West' for the Middle East is a bit like blaming European colonialism for the issues that Africa faces now. It's not like there is no link at all, but I think it's an excuse more than an actual thing preventing these areas from getting on. However, ignoring it won't change the perception of young people who are convinced that they need to kill European civilians to improve their lot in life.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
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26,131
Am I imagining things or is it becoming reasonably common for people to be "known to authorities" after these sorts of events?

It suggests that the issue that the security services have is not finding them in the first place (which mass surveillance would help out with), but actually keeping track of them.
 
Caporegime
OP
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22 Jun 2004
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Deep England
Am I imagining things or is it becoming reasonably common for people to be "known to authorities" after these sorts of events?

It suggests that the issue that the security services have is not finding them in the first place (which mass surveillance would help out with), but actually keeping track of them.

Agree that it does seem that all these terrorists are known to police - just goes to show how many of the buggers there are I reckon. Also agree that there aren't enough people tracking these buggers and enhanced SIGINT (or mass surveillance as the hysterical would put it) won't help track them. What enhanced SIGINT helps with is building a case against them, so they can be put behind bars quicker and the authorities spend less time tracking them.
 
Caporegime
Joined
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You're assuming that increased monitoring won't bring with it enough false positives to introduce so much noise into the results that the authorities time is taken up with chasing leads that don't exist, and they completely miss real threats.

For what it's worth I am completely against any idea of a backdoor in encryption technologies for law enforcement usage. We only really have a service economy left, tanking that because we're scared of terrorism would be stupid.
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,921
Agree that it does seem that all these terrorists are known to police - just goes to show how many of the buggers there are I reckon. Also agree that there aren't enough people tracking these buggers and enhanced SIGINT (or mass surveillance as the hysterical would put it) won't help track them. What enhanced SIGINT helps with is building a case against them, so they can be put behind bars quicker and the authorities spend less time tracking them.

shouldn't let them in in the first place - the guy wasn't an EU citizen and was known as an Islamist - forget monitoring, why not just prevent people like that from coming into the EU in the first place... like I said before, if he was a known fundamentalist then there is a good chance he's already not able to fly to the US, the EU should probably adopt a similar approach
 
Caporegime
OP
Joined
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Deep England
shouldn't let them in in the first place - the guy wasn't an EU citizen and was known as an Islamist - forget monitoring, why not just prevent people like that from coming into the EU in the first place... like I said before, if he was a known fundamentalist then there is a good chance he's already not able to fly to the US, the EU should probably adopt a similar approach

I agree but that ship has sailed, and worse is that you still have lets face it, the only EU government that matters - Germany - telling Britain to take more illegal immigrants. We need to get out of the EU to protect our borders.
 
Soldato
Joined
8 Apr 2009
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12,702
I'm not sure that waging a war to give KBR, Halliburton etc.. some extra income for a few years is the real motivation here - that is getting slightly into conspiracy theory territory

It's not conspiracy theory it's lobbying at it's very worst. It was a very different time then and a very different climate the presence of strength of lobbying from those companies and the major 'security' firms was profound across the senate and the military. There was a desire one up the previous attempt, there was a desire to change regimes, and there was a lot of whipped up rage and hate.


Ironic.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
26,131
I can't help but think you'll be waiting for a pretty long time for the UN to do anything. They seem to be an armoured rice distribution outfit now.
 
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