A friend, religion, and what to do?

[ICDP]

Only that's not what I said. I said you can't 100% claim to "know" that God doesn't exist, simply because you refute the evidence or there is no evidence.

As for the God of the gaps, I personally see the flip side to this argument. It is man in his arrogance who believes he has the answer to the existence of God, even when his understanding of the universe is so very basic.

Those gaps you speak of may not just be small gaps, but entire worlds of data that we are missing. The trouble is, we just don't know how much we don't know! We may know less than 0.00000001% of how our universe works.

It is again our own arrogance which makes us presume to deny the existence of God.

I am not being arrogant to presume that God most likely does not exist because I have not said God 100% does not exist. I have said there is no evidence for his existence and there is nothing in the observable universe that requires his existence, so I will presume he doesn't exist. This is not arrogance it is rational thought. Show me actual physical, measurable and testable evidence for his existence and I will evaluate it.

You ironically claim it is man (and I assume women) who is arrogant by claiming to have the answer to the existence of God. The only arrogant people making presumptions are the religious people who claim he exists and when asked for evidence reply with such playground nonsense as.

• Science can't explain everything
• You don't know he doesn't exists, I know in my heart he does.
• I have faith.
• My personal favourite using pure circular reasoning, the Bible tells me he exists because God wrote the Bible.

God doesn't even enter into proper scientific theories AT ALL by the simple virtue that there is zero actual measurable, tangible and testable proof he exists and as such has zero effect on the outcome of any observations. That is not arrogant, it is good science practice because we should not let spiritual needs and hopes affect our conclusions. You have demonstrated perfectly why science and religion are ultimately irreconcilable.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Why does it have to make sense? if something or someone existed outside the limits of what we know of the universe our concepts of what makes sense could be entirely meaningless.

I have no problem of something or someone existing outside the limits of what we know of the universe, what is impossible is an entity who has created everything in our Universe and put all the pieces into place by hand and then has also planned out the lives of every human being + animals.
That is stupid.

 

[ICDP]

I have no problem of something or someone existing outside the limits of what we know of the universe, what is impossible is an entity who has created everything in our Universe and put all the pieces into place by hand and then has also planned out the lives of every human being + animals.
That is stupid.

Indeed, it is absolutely irrational.

 

[FoxEye]

snip

I carefully worded my posts to express a very precise point. I'm afraid that all you're doing is twisting my words to make it sound like I'm saying something I didn't.

I have no problem of something or someone existing outside the limits of what we know of the universe, what is impossible is an entity who has created everything in our Universe and put all the pieces into place by hand and then has also planned out the lives of every human being + animals.
That is stupid.

Fate or pre destiny is not a Bible teaching. I don't know about other religions. I don't think you have to be religious to believe in fate, however.

What you have described is not Christianity. You've taken something absurd, told us you think it's absurd, and then made the huge step to say that therefore religion is absurd.

Again, the Bible talks a lot about free will. If there was such a thing as fate or pre destiny then free will could not exist.

 

[cheesyboy]

Is God's existence actually especially important to belief in a religion anyway?

I'm no expert - I'm barely even beyond an embarrassing level of ignorance - but aren't things like Christianity, Islam, and probably the others, more based upon following the guidelines of their respective messengers than they are about the potential for a higher power?

God is just a representation of conscience or morality, and even of nature and evolution itself - not the common misinterpretation of "Him" as an actual entity.

I seem to remember the Archbishop of Canterbury (or similar?) admitting to sometimes doubting the existence of "God", but that his faith in Jesus was unwavering.

It's likely that, by placing too much truck on the greatness of "god" people actually miss the point of what their scriptures are teaching. Similarly, atheists who obsess about the, frankly absurd, notion of such a greater power are missing the point - though I guess it's a reaction to the religious who lean on "Him" so.

 

[ICDP]

I carefully worded my posts to express a very precise point. I'm afraid that all you're doing is twisting my words to make it sound like I'm saying something I didn't.

Oh the irony. Your posts amount to nothing more than lengthy ways of saying "God exists way beyond our mere puny comprehension". You imply I (and Atheists in general) cannot possibly understand how God exists, but somehow you understand it. This is irrational and arrogant and is not a remotely viable argument proving the existence of God.

 

[ICDP]

Is God's existence actually especially important to belief in a religion anyway?

I'm no expert - I'm barely even beyond an embarrassing level of ignorance - but aren't things like Christianity, Islam, and probably the others, more based upon following the guidelines of their respective messengers than they are about the potential for a higher power?

God is just a representation of conscience or morality, and even of nature and evolution itself - not the common misinterpretation of "Him" as an actual entity.

I seem to remember the Archbishop of Canterbury (or similar?) admitting to sometimes doubting the existence of "God", but that his faith in Jesus was unwavering.

It's likely that, by placing too much truck on the greatness of "god" people actually miss the point of what their scriptures are teaching. Similarly, atheists who obsess about the, frankly absurd, notion of such a greater power are missing the point - though I guess it's a reaction to the religious who lean on "Him" so.

A nice thought but not based on reality. Religious institutions (apart from Buddhism who do not believe in a physical God) absolutely believe their respective supreme deity exists in both a physical and spiritual sense. If God was only a mental construct he could not possibly manipulate the physical universe which would destroy one of the main pillars of faith, in that God created everything.

 

[DR_Pingu]

You sound like a hypocrite he is better of without a "friend" like you. Just because he has chosen a religion doesn't make him any less of a person that he was before. I have many friends from different cultures, religions and whilst I don't agree with their philosophy in life I wouldn't cut ties with them because of it. However each person has a different personality so if he changes and starts drifting away then let him be.

Agree on this part; I too have plenty of friends who are of different cultures, backgrounds and have different beliefs. They've never pushed their beliefs on me and I, as an Agnostic, have never been a knobhead to them either saying they're wrong - because the truth is nobody can say they're right on this topic, hence why I'm not a 7 on the Dawkins scale. In fact, some of them are the nicest people I genuinely know, the one top of that list in fact (funnily enough, seeing one of the earlier posts about 'them') is a Muslim.

The secret to life is to not be a **** to people - only do so if they are ****'s to you first, that's how I go about things; I don't pre-judge and I won't talk down to someone unless they're being a ****. Choose whichever word you feel necessary to fit the '****', you are your own person I shall let you decide

As for religion keeping poor in their place, lol pull the other one. Religion teaches equality and you can continue to be shackled down into a financial choke hold that your beliefs have burdened upon you.

Sorry here but you don't seem to make sense; if you look at the 'leaders' of religions world-wide you'll see a correlation that they're all rich, literally soaking up the cash donations from those who are weak minded. Given the fact religious establishments make £Billions world-wide, yet pay no tax, I find that alone astonishing. Secret hint for you, some of the richest people in the world are atheist/agnostic and are apart of Bill Gates' charity/organisation dedicated to ensuring they donate over 50% of their entire wealth before they die. Great, right? Ok, so one of the richest theists (I believe he's a Christian) in the world has never donated, i.e. shared his wealth... not very Christian-like if you ask me, given their so-say values. Given these are people who directly influence and manipulate others own thoughts (religious leaders) I think such deserve a little bash here and there, though Dawkins, Hitchens, heck even Ricky Gervais do well enough to make it comical. Can't forget Stephen Fry either!

 

[BuffetSlayer]

Is God's existence actually especially important to belief in a religion anyway?

I'm no expert - I'm barely even beyond an embarrassing level of ignorance - but aren't things like Christianity, Islam, and probably the others, more based upon following the guidelines of their respective messengers than they are about the potential for a higher power?

God is just a representation of conscience or morality, and even of nature and evolution itself - not the common misinterpretation of "Him" as an actual entity.

I do not believe the two can me mutually exclusive. Religion is based on a basic equation where ABC = Ten Commandments (or whatever), D = death, Z = God, Y = Heaven and X = Hell.

Follow ABC and when D happens, Z will facilitate entry into Y.

Do not follow ABC and when D happens, Z will impose entry into X.

People generally follow religion because of what they get out of it, and invariably going to heaven in the form it takes in any given religion is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and God is the only person with the gate key.

Religious folk can try and deny it, but using Christianity as an example, essentially their whole faith is based on the foundation that if they love god (through worship, following the bible etc etc) then they will be assured a place in heaven. Ergo, faith is fundamentally selfish where by people follow the rules because it makes them feel good and because there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (Oh and people don't want their souls to be damned in eternity). Indeed it could be argued that religion is the very antithesis of altruism.

If worshipping a God had absolutely no perceived advantages/disadvantages, be it from divine intervention or a ticket into heaven when you die - would religion even exist?

 

[porushinobu]

Leave him to it and remain friends, if he tries to push it on you. Warn him off. Im in a relationship with an outspoken christian and im more of an athiest than when we started going out because she pushed it on me. Infact Im almost completely athiest now and i was content at staying agnostic and not giving a ****

 

[DR_Pingu]

I do not believe the two can me mutually exclusive. Religion is based on a basic equation where ABC = Ten Commandments (or whatever), D = death, Z = God, Y = Heaven and X = Hell.

Follow ABC and when D happens, Z will facilitate entry into Y.

Do not follow ABC and when D happens, Z will impose entry into X.

People generally follow religion because of what they get out of it, and invariably going to heaven in the form it takes in any given religion is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and God is the only person with the gate key.

Religious folk can try and deny it, but using Christianity as an example, essentially their whole faith is based on the foundation that if they love god (through worship, following the bible etc etc) then they will be assured a place in heaven. Ergo, faith is fundamentally selfish where by people follow the rules because it makes them feel good and because there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (Oh and people don't want their souls to be damned in eternity). Indeed it could be argued that religion is the very antithesis of altruism.

If worshipping a God had absolutely no perceived advantages/disadvantages, be it from divine intervention or a ticket into heaven when you die - would religion even exist?

This. To the evangelicals - they are the pure type who are nice because they're under an oath to be nice, otherwise, you can read them like a book knowing, they'd be nasty.

I love the passive-aggressive retorts such as "I'll pray for you." I typically response with "I'll think for you."

 

[Thekwango]

love how these threads just descend into a tit for tat your wrong I'm right argument. pretty sure the OP simply asked should he try and impart his view on religion onto his mate - simple answer to that is no not really. let him get on with it if it is making him happy.

not sure why the same old arguments about is there/isn't there a God had to be started - but hey wouldn't be GD if you couldn't turn a simple question into a full blown back and forth

 

[boxman2000]

Luckily, he's the kind of guy who wouldn't push his views on me, so it's unlikely to come to any kind of direct conflict - at least as far as things are at the moment, but that could change depending on if or how he changes. (Will leave that one for the time being)

So let me get this straight, you're not sure if you should be saying something to your friend about his decision to get involved in church, i.e. you're wondering whether to push your views on him, but at the same time you're glad your friend isn't the sort of guy that would push his views on you.

No offence but I would perhaps check how good a friend you are first, given the fact this is clearly his decision and nothing to do with you.

Why would it cause conflict? Not everyone has to agree on any one thing.

In short, no I don't think you should try and push your belief system onto your friend.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

Why would it cause conflict?

Lol, because as a species we are fundamentally stupid and never learn our lessons

 

[boxman2000]

Lol, because as a species we are fundamentally stupid and never learn our lessons

Not everyone would get into a row about a specific topic, some people are actually able to hold a sensible and civil conversation, even if they don't agree on any one point.

To be fair, some athiests I've discussed my faith with have completely flown off the handle when I haven't changed my viewpoint at the end of the discussion, particularly when evolution comes up.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

Not everyone would get into a row about a specific topic, some people are actually able to hold a sensible and civil conversation, even if they don't agree on any one point.

To be fair, most athiests I've discussed my faith with have completely flown off the handle when I haven't changed my viewpoint at the end of the discussion, particularly when evolution comes up.

I was talking in broader terms, such as holy wars, religious genocide etc. They are all just the end results of the same discussions you have had with your friends but on a a much more grand scale.

I agree with you, live and let live. Both sides of the line have flaws and can be criticised. As someone mentioned earlier, each group has their good and bad apples

 

[matt_fsr]

This is a troll thread right? Nice bit of baiting by the op.

It's genuinely not a troll threat. I haven't been in this situation before, I don't have a large circle of friends, and those I do have religion is rarely a topic. Of those that are religious, it's something that they've always had so I suppose maybe I see that differently?

I'm also an Atheist but you're making the assumption you are right.
What if in a few years there is proof then we Atheists will look like proper fools.
Best say nothing and both get on with your lives.

I'll take the 2000+ year gamble that proof hasn't rocked up yet, so in my remaining 60 or so years I doubt any proof will arrive.

I'm aware quite a few people have been quite sharp in criticism of me, maybe it's justified without knowing me - it's certainly not my intention to try and 'lecture the godbothering out of him' so to speak, I'd rather stay friends and leave him to that part of his life.

Perhaps I'm just worried that it'll become more and more important to him, to the exclusion of other friends - and that bothers me, given how I feel about religion. Perhaps when the time comes, the discussion may have to be had. I just won't be looking forward to it.

 

[ICDP]

Not everyone would get into a row about a specific topic, some people are actually able to hold a sensible and civil conversation, even if they don't agree on any one point.

To be fair, some athiests I've discussed my faith with have completely flown off the handle when I haven't changed my viewpoint at the end of the discussion, particularly when evolution comes up.

A person being unable to change their viewpoint despite evidence contradicting it, or the lack of empirical evidence to support their viewpoint, is totally alien to some atheists.

I am fine with people believing in God and being religious and will happily debate with them on the subject if they start one. They just need to accept I do not hold any of their religious beliefs in any kind of reverence or respect. While I do not attack them personally they almost always take it personally when I say I find belief in God irrational.

 

[boxman2000]

A person being unable to change their viewpoint despite evidence contradicting it, or the lack of empirical evidence to support their viewpoint, is totally alien to some atheists.

I am fine with people believing in God and being religious and will happily debate with them on the subject if they start one. They just need to accept I do not hold any of their religious beliefs in any kind of reverence or respect. While I do not attack them personally they almost always take it personally when I say I find belief in God irrational.

I think taking it personally is a mutual thing quite honestly as belief systems are being challenged.

Of course, "evidence" can be very, very subjective.

 

[ICDP]

I think taking it personally is a mutual thing quite honestly as belief systems are being challenged.

Absolutely agree, this is part of human nature to defend ideals you hold dearly. I have found myself taking it personally when a religious person said they would pray for my soul when I am burning in hell. Even though I don't believe in hell.

Of course, "evidence" can be very, very subjective.

Agreed, to some the evidence for the existence for their God is clear to see. They can get quite irate when others don't see what they believe is obvious. The same holds true for Atheists who fail to comprehend how someone cannot just simply reject evidence that is in their opinion spurious.

When I debate with a religious person about religion vs atheism I am not trying to convert them. I am simply trying to let them understand my point of view. Not all atheists are the militant type who attack religion and cannot see it is capable of good. Similarly not all religious people are fundamentalists who are incapable of rational thought.