US TV journalists shot dead on air

RoboCod · 27 Aug 2015 at 19:56

dowie said:
well the idea is so they can overthrow the government if it starts doing things they don't want... despite living in a democracy anyway

Which is beyond stupid. I believe the UK is a freer country than the US right now, particularly in some states. Further, the law of right to bear arms dates back to a time of single shot muskets and not automatic people slayers.

dowie · 27 Aug 2015 at 20:00

RoboCod said:
Which is beyond stupid. I believe the UK is a freer country than the US right now, particularly in some states. Further, the law of right to bear arms dates back to a time of single shot muskets and not automatic people slayers.

well given the intention of the law they really ought to be allowed anti tank weapons and surface to air missiles these days if they want to be properly equipped to fight the givernment

dowie · 27 Aug 2015 at 20:03

pointing rifles at federal officers is perhaps safer if you're white:

RoboCod · 27 Aug 2015 at 20:07

dowie said:
well given the intention of the law they really ought to be allowed anti tank weapons and surface to air missiles these days if they want to be properly equipped to fight the givernment

Aha, a fair point

I shamelessly stole these points I was reading on a site.

In 1791, for example:

There were only 3.9 million Americans

The "arms" we gave ourselves the right to bear were vastly less powerful--namely they were single-shot muskets that had to be manually loaded with powder and ball for each shot, versus today's semi-automatic assault weapons that spray 50-60 high-caliber bullets per minute

It was legal to own slaves in some parts of the country (Constitutionally permissible behavior that, fortunately, changed)

"America" didn't extend west of the Mississippi River (and, really, it was only the 13 colonies)

Indians still attacked occasionally

We hunted a lot of our food

"States" really were separate countries in those days--it took months to travel from one end of the country to the other

The "frontier" (and many other parts of the country) was essentially lawless: Citizens had to protect themselves, because no one else was around to do it (Now, most states have well-armed police forces, etc.)

Basically, can we at least agree that giving ourselves the unfettered right to buy, sell, and own whatever kinds of weapons we want might have made more sense in 1791 than it does today--and, therefore, that it's a bit unfair to couch this debate in terms of "defending the Constitution" and/or trying to figure out what the Framers meant by "a well-regulated militia"?

I mean, do folks really think that if the "Framers" had seen what happened in that Colorado movie theater last week, they still would have written the Second Amendment the way they did--with no qualifications?

Yes, this point is academic, because the Second Amendment is what it is.

But can we all at least agree that it's a bit, if nothing else, outdated?

Or are we all totally cool with any old sick ******* being able to buy as many quasi-machine guns as he or she wants?

It's all moot though I guess. When they ban firearms there isn't a hope in hell that everyone will suddenly turn in their guns.

glenimp617 · 27 Aug 2015 at 20:15

RoboCod said:
Speaking to some Americans about this lately. Their response to combat the matter? The journalists should carry guns for protection.

I actually laughed.

oh, I'm surprised they didn't hit you with the age old "the gun didn't kill them, the person did" rubbish

you know all those bullet holes, it wasn't the gun which caused it....and all those bullets laying on the decking....no, not the gun. It was the person!

Must have stuck his fingers in really hard :rolleyes:

Hate that argument! it wasn't the gun ****. You ever hear about the person who did a mass killing with marshmallows? Nope, me neither.

Vulcan · 27 Aug 2015 at 20:24

DJMK4 said:
More the question why would you sell military grade weapons (i know this was a handgun) but still americas gun law is a mess.

"Military grade"?

d_brennen · 27 Aug 2015 at 20:36

I think the sale of guns to Joe Soap is ridiculous, but then the law around the sale of alcohol, tobacco and any number of things that people ruin themselves with is too.

Tefal · 27 Aug 2015 at 21:06

Longbow said:
"Military grade"?

Designed for killing humans as opposed to hunting animals?

Dolph · 27 Aug 2015 at 22:54

Why do gun owners get punished for the actions of a tiny proportion of nutters, but sharing a religion, ideology or similar with a nutter leads to calls for tolerance and demands not to tar people with the same brush?

Vulcan · 27 Aug 2015 at 23:02

Tefal said:
Designed for killing humans as opposed to hunting animals?

So, automatic weapons then? They are already restricted.

Bolt action rifles, semi-auto rifles and pistols are all used for hunting, and by the military too.

estebanrey · 27 Aug 2015 at 23:06

Dolph said:
Why do gun owners get punished for the actions of a tiny proportion of nutters, but sharing a religion, ideology or similar with a nutter leads to calls for tolerance and demands not to tar people with the same brush?

How are gun owners being "punished" exactly? I don't seem to recall a spate of incidents of gun owners being attacked din the streets simply for being gun owners, or having their houses sprayed with graffiti telling them to 'go home' shortly after a mass shooting.

What an odd comparison.

Dolph · 27 Aug 2015 at 23:10

estebanrey said:
How are gun owners being "punished" exactly? I don't seem to recall a spate of incidents of gun owners being attacked din the streets simply for being gun owners, or having their houses sprayed with graffiti telling them to 'go home' shortly after a mass shooting.

What an odd comparison.

Well, currently politicians, including the president, want to use the machinery of state to remove rights from gun owners, as has already happened in the uk. That is far worse than a harressement by other individuals. It is the equilvent of banning all students from protesting due to the actions of the tuition fees rioters, for example...

RavenXXX2 · 27 Aug 2015 at 23:26

A source said the police found “many” unwashed sex toys in the flat as well as gay porn.

As if his family are not ashamed enough as it is.

estebanrey · 27 Aug 2015 at 23:28

Dolph said:
Well, currently politicians, including the president, want to use the machinery of state to remove rights from gun owners, as has already happened in the uk. That is far worse than a harressement by other individuals. It is the equilvent of banning all students from protesting due to the actions of the tuition fees rioters, for example...

If you think having to wait a bit longer to get a gun, go through a few more checks or have minor restrictions on how much ammo you can buy (not even Obama is calling for an all out UK style ban despite your scaremongering) is worse than being beaten up or regularly verbally abused because of the colour of your skin it just shows how deluded and messed up pro-gunners are.

This is what I don't understand. The word "Freedom" covers a massive range of issues yet the NRA seem to be able to convince large swathes of the US public the concept solely relates gun ownership rights. No guns = no freedom.

You could have the most liberal country on Earth where drugs, prostitution, naturists, gambling etc are all legal but if they have strong gun control laws they suddenly become some kind of anti-freedom dictatorship to your average Yank.

Americans rarely mention restrictions on "freedom" when it comes to their ban on Kinder Eggs, their pruddish laws against women going topless on beaches, huge restrictions on fast cars that see cars like a TVR being illegal in the States, or even having laws against crossing the road (jay walking) but mention even the most modest and sensible changes to US gun law and suddenly they are up in arms (excuse the pun).

SonniLombardi · 27 Aug 2015 at 23:29

Jesus what the **** is wrong with these people!! what is wrong with AMERICA?!

Scougar · 28 Aug 2015 at 02:50

SonniLombardi said:
Jesus what the **** is wrong with these people!! what is wrong with AMERICA?!

Let's not mention the crazy crap that happens in the UK.

America has 318 million people, the uk has 64 million, so the likelyhood is gonna be a lot more going on in the USA than the UK.

Dude with a grudge has access to a firearm. That's the only real issue I have with firearms is that they can be used like this.

Tefal · 28 Aug 2015 at 03:56

Longbow said:
So, automatic weapons then? They are already restricted.

Bolt action rifles, semi-auto rifles and pistols are all used for hunting, and by the military too.

Well no, you would be a pretty big ******* to go hunting with anything 5.56mm say.

Or a 9mm pistol, or a snub nose revolver etc.

Also there's lots of full auto weapons knocking around grandfathered in under the laws

Tefal · 28 Aug 2015 at 04:02

Scougar said:
Let's not mention the crazy crap that happens in the UK.

When did the UK last have a mass shooting/killing in a school?

RoboCod · 28 Aug 2015 at 04:17

Dolph said:
Well, currently politicians, including the president, want to use the machinery of state to remove rights from gun owners, as has already happened in the uk. That is far worse than a harressement by other individuals. It is the equilvent of banning all students from protesting due to the actions of the tuition fees rioters, for example...

Lolph

Dolph · 28 Aug 2015 at 07:22

estebanrey said:
If you think having to wait a bit longer to get a gun, go through a few more checks or have minor restrictions on how much ammo you can buy (not even Obama is calling for an all out UK style ban despite your scaremongering) is worse than being beaten up or regularly verbally abused because of the colour of your skin it just shows how deluded and messed up pro-gunners are.

This is what I don't understand. The word "Freedom" covers a massive range of issues yet the NRA seem to be able to convince large swathes of the US public the concept solely relates gun ownership rights. No guns = no freedom.

You could have the most liberal country on Earth where drugs, prostitution, naturists, gambling etc are all legal but if they have strong gun control laws they suddenly become some kind of anti-freedom dictatorship to your average Yank.

Americans rarely mention restrictions on "freedom" when it comes to their ban on Kinder Eggs, their pruddish laws against women going topless on beaches, huge restrictions on fast cars that see cars like a TVR being illegal in the States, or even having laws against crossing the road (jay walking) but mention even the most modest and sensible changes to US gun law and suddenly they are up in arms (excuse the pun).

Damn those constitutional rights.

I don't disagree with you about the double standards, but then the idea that gun control is a liberal position is also hypocrticial as there is nothing liberal about restricting rights unnecessarily.

Both your point and mine are irrelevant though, as legislation should be based purely on evidence and least interference in a free society. That Americans allow other restrictions on their rights without complaint is not in any way a justification for additional gun controls.