The EU Migrant Crisis

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estebanrey said:
LOL, the amount of ignorance on this subject really is amazing.

Do you think the entire conflict in Syria is just ISIS invading an otherwise peaceful country that supports it's government?

You do realise that there are a number of opposing groups in Syria, all of whom (including the government) have no qualms with killing civilians.

What would you do with Syrian males that fled because their homes were bombed and villages gassed by Assad? Should they be sent back to back to join ISIS and fight the government?

Go read a book for Christ's Sake.
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Pick a side and fight.

They are cowards, no ifs no buts
 
With this mandatory refugee quoatas thing that passed if I was one of the smaller poorer countries I would stay quiet and take the refugees in and on the second day give them all passports
 
Drizmod said:
With this mandatory refugee quoatas thing that passed if I was one of the smaller poorer countries I would stay quiet and take the refugees in and on the second day give them all passports
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Well that is going to happen eventually. But it's time that Merkel, Hollande and that clown Juncker admit they got it wrong and start nipping things in the bud. Start sending the boats back. Then take some time to sort the wheat from the chaff and deport the economic migrants. It's not often I'd say Cameron got things right but taking the refugees from the camps and not from Europe is the right move.
 
BuffetSlayer said:
We, as a nation, can't have a hand in destabilising regions then stand up and refuse to help with the problems it causes. We keep banging on about economic migrants and refugees, and I agree we need to think carefully. But given the state of Syria and surrounding areas are they not one and the same thing? You may not necessarily be in fear of your life or in any danger but if your town or city has been reduced to rubble how do you live? You have no help from the government and no help from the rebels. There is essentially no state, no law, no services only anarchy. What would you do? Go to a neighbouring area with the risk of the violence arriving there as well? Of course not, you get as far away from it as you can. I lol at all the keyboard warriors saying they should fight for their freedom. They are civillians not soldiers and the very soldiers that were sworn to protect them had a hand in reducing their homes to rubble and killing hundreds of them. Get a grip.

However, that is not to say it should be an open door, but simply that the right thing to do is to help mop up some of the mess we helped to create. I think our policy is about right and is fair enough. Germany seem to have had the best intentions but has opened itself up to a surge in population that it may struggle to cope with. Whilst I commend their humanitarian decision I think it will cause them issues and they will perhaps regret their decision.

To temper the argument of a Muslim influx, with statistics showing that the Muslim population in Britain have some of the highest (if not the highest) rates of unemployment and NEET, I can understand the reluctance of some to allow more Muslim immigrants into the country. Given the figures, it would suggest a relatively high proportion of Muslims are drawing benefits and/or working for cash in hand and possibly not paying the correct amount of tax as well as not seeing the same success levels in the workplace as other religious groups. Now, is that because of institutional bigotry perhaps, or because they are not culturally aligned to the British way of life in order to make a valuable contribution to our economy? I think it is a little of both if I am honest. Culturally, in terms of economics, cash is king to the Muslim world and you only have to visit a Bazaar to see that. Cash in hand is generally their culture for doing business (as well as a favour for a favour) so I think more Muslim men are working than the figures suggest. Of course lack of tax revenue from those individuals working for cash in hand (and their employers) is a separate issue but suffice to say they are not the only ones running rings around the tax system so to view them in a more dim-than-usual light because of it is a little short sighted. Institutionally I can see why employers would get caught up in the hype and be reluctant to employ Muslims. The old "b-b-but they need five 15min breaks a day!" argument is trotted out regularly and I have no doubt that those responsible for recruiting display an equal amount of misunderstanding as we see in this thread on this issue (and that of religious holidays) and thus overlook Muslim applicants.

Given there is evidence that a lot of young Muslim women have been 'imported' to be arranged brides over the last 20 years it would suggest that poor education and language skills are a factor in the low number of Muslim women in employment. Coupled with the cultural view that the women should stay at home to manage the house and kids and commercial childcare is to be frowned upon, I can understand why so few are in employment. Unfortunately that cultural decision only has so much credibility, and after the 4th or 5th child one has to ask whether the family are reproducing responsibly. Of course this is not limited to Muslim families, but given their propensity to have a higher than average number of kids and given their unemployment rates it would seem to be a definite problem. I am not really sure how to tackle it, other than to engage with the Muslim population and try and change hearts and minds when it comes to their cultural views. Figures suggest that many Muslim women would love to have a job but feel their poor command of English and their lack of education and skills is holding them back. In turn this could be why we are seeing a large proportion of Muslim kids struggling with education and employment themselves. If your parents are not so well educated and/or have a poor command of English, what hope do you have compared to an average white British family?

So what about the men? Is it simply demographics, with a wide gap between the youngest and oldest and many older Muslim men being retired? Is it cultural where Muslim men tend to work ‘cash in hand’ and therefore don't show up on the employment/tax radar? Discrimination by employers who feel Muslim men are not worth employing? Poor education performance amongst young Muslims from deprived areas? My guess is that it is a complex mixture of all of the above. Islamophobia has taken hold in the UK and many people see Muslims as backwards and dangerous. I don’t even think it is about the fear of terrorism, just fear of what they don’t understand that gets whipped up by those with an anti-Muslim agenda. I find the irony of anti-Muslim extremism pretty tragic. Here we have a group of people intent on vilifying the Muslim population because their holy book says, for example, it is OK to sleep with 9 year old girls and they are adamant that this is what every other Muslim believes and denounce them for their extremist faith. Yet they exhibit the same lack of tolerance and the same extremism in their beliefs as what they accuse of.

I do question whether Muslim culture and outlook on life clashes with British values and that overall it isn't simply bigotry. For example, the figures suggest that every other faith seems to have relatively equal employment rates so it would be difficult to argue bigotry per se, or even anti-religious sentiments based on that evidence.

But then I also believe that no other religion has been such a hot topic over the last 10 years, and I wonder just how much damage the collective agendas of the media and associated political parties along with the actions of the extreme minority of Muslims have done to the worlds view of Islam? Is it simply that Muslims are not integrating into British society because they feel they can't or is it because they won't? In any given situation, a group of people will gravitate towards those similar to themselves, so you get Polish communities, Sikh communities and Chinese communities and yet these communities whilst having their own distinct identity are successfully integrating with the rest of British life both culturally and economically. Fundamentally, is Islam just incompatible with the liberal and increasingly secular UK lifestyle? Whilst I think it is tempting to think so, we have had millions of Muslims living peacefully in Britain for decades. Only since 9/11 have the real issues started and to be fair there are culprits on both sides of the issue in that regard. Then since 7/7 the UK government has been securitising the Muslim population which further alienates them.

I was reading some responses on Reddit about Muslim life after 9/11. OK, you can’t verify it but I see no reason why so many people would lie. I felt ashamed to be a human being when reading the content. It is little wonder we have such an issue with integration if we see every Muslim as a terrorist and treat them wish suspicion. We are going through great lengths in this country to try and tackle the radicalisation of young Muslims and yet our prevailing policies seem to firmly place the ball in the court of Muslim communities. I think we need to rethink that strategy, and perhaps encourage more dialogue through treating Muslims like terrorists less. Since the implementation of terror laws there has been a profound effect on education too with Muslims being seen as a potential problem to be monitored rather than just kids at school. Indeed, our laws and mindset are so extreme now that it has pervaded daily life, through the fear of attack, and I actually wonder if the government are trying to maintain the divide so it can make sure the Muslim population remain marginalised.

Hate just breeds more hate, and if you treat someone like a terrorist for most of their life should you be too surprised if they become one?
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Long.
 
BuffetSlayer said:
We, as a nation, can't have a hand in destabilising regions then stand up and refuse to help with the problems it causes. We keep banging on about economic migrants and refugees, and I agree we need to think carefully. But given the state of Syria and surrounding areas are they not one and the same thing? You may not necessarily be in fear of your life or in any danger but if your town or city has been reduced to rubble how do you live? You have no help from the government and no help from the rebels. There is essentially no state, no law, no services only anarchy. What would you do? Go to a neighbouring area with the risk of the violence arriving there as well? Of course not, you get as far away from it as you can. I lol at all the keyboard warriors saying they should fight for their freedom. They are civillians not soldiers and the very soldiers that were sworn to protect them had a hand in reducing their homes to rubble and killing hundreds of them. Get a grip.

However, that is not to say it should be an open door, but simply that the right thing to do is to help mop up some of the mess we helped to create. I think our policy is about right and is fair enough. Germany seem to have had the best intentions but has opened itself up to a surge in population that it may struggle to cope with. Whilst I commend their humanitarian decision I think it will cause them issues and they will perhaps regret their decision.

To temper the argument of a Muslim influx, with statistics showing that the Muslim population in Britain have some of the highest (if not the highest) rates of unemployment and NEET, I can understand the reluctance of some to allow more Muslim immigrants into the country. Given the figures, it would suggest a relatively high proportion of Muslims are drawing benefits and/or working for cash in hand and possibly not paying the correct amount of tax as well as not seeing the same success levels in the workplace as other religious groups. Now, is that because of institutional bigotry perhaps, or because they are not culturally aligned to the British way of life in order to make a valuable contribution to our economy? I think it is a little of both if I am honest. Culturally, in terms of economics, cash is king to the Muslim world and you only have to visit a Bazaar to see that. Cash in hand is generally their culture for doing business (as well as a favour for a favour) so I think more Muslim men are working than the figures suggest. Of course lack of tax revenue from those individuals working for cash in hand (and their employers) is a separate issue but suffice to say they are not the only ones running rings around the tax system so to view them in a more dim-than-usual light because of it is a little short sighted. Institutionally I can see why employers would get caught up in the hype and be reluctant to employ Muslims. The old "b-b-but they need five 15min breaks a day!" argument is trotted out regularly and I have no doubt that those responsible for recruiting display an equal amount of misunderstanding as we see in this thread on this issue (and that of religious holidays) and thus overlook Muslim applicants.

Given there is evidence that a lot of young Muslim women have been 'imported' to be arranged brides over the last 20 years it would suggest that poor education and language skills are a factor in the low number of Muslim women in employment. Coupled with the cultural view that the women should stay at home to manage the house and kids and commercial childcare is to be frowned upon, I can understand why so few are in employment. Unfortunately that cultural decision only has so much credibility, and after the 4th or 5th child one has to ask whether the family are reproducing responsibly. Of course this is not limited to Muslim families, but given their propensity to have a higher than average number of kids and given their unemployment rates it would seem to be a definite problem. I am not really sure how to tackle it, other than to engage with the Muslim population and try and change hearts and minds when it comes to their cultural views. Figures suggest that many Muslim women would love to have a job but feel their poor command of English and their lack of education and skills is holding them back. In turn this could be why we are seeing a large proportion of Muslim kids struggling with education and employment themselves. If your parents are not so well educated and/or have a poor command of English, what hope do you have compared to an average white British family?

So what about the men? Is it simply demographics, with a wide gap between the youngest and oldest and many older Muslim men being retired? Is it cultural where Muslim men tend to work ‘cash in hand’ and therefore don't show up on the employment/tax radar? Discrimination by employers who feel Muslim men are not worth employing? Poor education performance amongst young Muslims from deprived areas? My guess is that it is a complex mixture of all of the above. Islamophobia has taken hold in the UK and many people see Muslims as backwards and dangerous. I don’t even think it is about the fear of terrorism, just fear of what they don’t understand that gets whipped up by those with an anti-Muslim agenda. I find the irony of anti-Muslim extremism pretty tragic. Here we have a group of people intent on vilifying the Muslim population because their holy book says, for example, it is OK to sleep with 9 year old girls and they are adamant that this is what every other Muslim believes and denounce them for their extremist faith. Yet they exhibit the same lack of tolerance and the same extremism in their beliefs as what they accuse of.

I do question whether Muslim culture and outlook on life clashes with British values and that overall it isn't simply bigotry. For example, the figures suggest that every other faith seems to have relatively equal employment rates so it would be difficult to argue bigotry per se, or even anti-religious sentiments based on that evidence.

But then I also believe that no other religion has been such a hot topic over the last 10 years, and I wonder just how much damage the collective agendas of the media and associated political parties along with the actions of the extreme minority of Muslims have done to the worlds view of Islam? Is it simply that Muslims are not integrating into British society because they feel they can't or is it because they won't? In any given situation, a group of people will gravitate towards those similar to themselves, so you get Polish communities, Sikh communities and Chinese communities and yet these communities whilst having their own distinct identity are successfully integrating with the rest of British life both culturally and economically. Fundamentally, is Islam just incompatible with the liberal and increasingly secular UK lifestyle? Whilst I think it is tempting to think so, we have had millions of Muslims living peacefully in Britain for decades. Only since 9/11 have the real issues started and to be fair there are culprits on both sides of the issue in that regard. Then since 7/7 the UK government has been securitising the Muslim population which further alienates them.

I was reading some responses on Reddit about Muslim life after 9/11. OK, you can’t verify it but I see no reason why so many people would lie. I felt ashamed to be a human being when reading the content. It is little wonder we have such an issue with integration if we see every Muslim as a terrorist and treat them wish suspicion. We are going through great lengths in this country to try and tackle the radicalisation of young Muslims and yet our prevailing policies seem to firmly place the ball in the court of Muslim communities. I think we need to rethink that strategy, and perhaps encourage more dialogue through treating Muslims like terrorists less. Since the implementation of terror laws there has been a profound effect on education too with Muslims being seen as a potential problem to be monitored rather than just kids at school. Indeed, our laws and mindset are so extreme now that it has pervaded daily life, through the fear of attack, and I actually wonder if the government are trying to maintain the divide so it can make sure the Muslim population remain marginalised.

Hate just breeds more hate, and if you treat someone like a terrorist for most of their life should you be too surprised if they become one?
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When did UK PLC destabilise Pakistan?
 
scorza said:
/checks memory - yep pretty sure. If every credible news source disagrees then presumably it'll be no problem for you to provide a link to one.

(waits for Russia Today link).
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What specifically do you want a link to? The support we have given Syrian rebels over recent years or the issues we left behind in Iraq and Afghanistan?

(PS I checked page 11 and can't find anything)
 
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gettothechopper said:
that would make you an "econonmic migrant" wouldnt it ? ;) (certainly not a refugee) shouldnt you stay in your country and fight for it? bit cowardly to run away also why are you a fighting age male and not a woman or child? Shouldnt you go to the first safe country? rather than get to chose? You wont integrate into any of those countries either - probably just claim benefits too
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I imagine he would apply through the proper channels rather than trying to kick his way in. And if they don't let him in I guess he won't destroy property, attack the Police and start fires everywhere.


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SciNeT said:
I imagine he would apply through the proper channels rather than trying to kick his way in. And if they don't let him in I guess he won't destroy property, attack the Police and start fires everywhere.
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Are you seriously comparing the choice a relatively rich Westerner has with someone who's home has been destroyed and has had to flee where they live on foot with whatever they could grab, and confused why the former person is less likely to riot?

Really?

I suppose in their situation you'd just sit there in your tent in Calais peacefully starving and putting up with poor sanitation and just hope help will arrive at some point, because you wouldn't want to to cause any trouble?

Do I condone rioting and violence, of course not but your deliberate ignorance of the situation and symptoms of the trouble, and blatant attempt to use this as evidence these are just generally violent and ungrateful scumbags and therefore undeserving of any help is just asinine....to be polite.
 
The Syrian men should all be put into a national service, trained in the German Army for 6 months, then send them all back as part of a UN backed coalition along with the help of Russia and USA and get rid of ISIS once and for all.
 
estebanrey said:
Are you seriously comparing the choice a relatively rich Westerner has with someone who's home has been destroyed and has had to flee where they live on foot with whatever they could grab, and confused why the former person is less likely to riot?

Really?
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They could probably claim asylum in Turkey, and save themselves the hassle of the journey through Europe though - Right?

It isn't like they have no choice but to undertake this route, is it?
 
estebanrey said:
Are you seriously comparing the choice a relatively rich Westerner has with someone who's home has been destroyed and has had to flee where they live on foot with whatever they could grab, and confused why the former person is less likely to riot?

Really?

I suppose in their situation you'd just sit there in your tent in Calais peacefully starving and putting up with poor sanitation and just hope help will arrive at some point, because you wouldn't want to to cause any trouble?

Do I condone rioting and violence, of course not but your deliberate ignorance of the situation and symptoms of the trouble, and blatant attempt to use this as evidence these are just generally violent and ungrateful scumbags and therefore undeserving of any help is just asinine....to be polite.
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I personally am sick and tired of people doing mental gymnastics to justify criminality from these migrants.

There is no excuse for rioting, arson, attacking police. None. I don't care what you think they've been through.

e: To add to that, I have sympathy for those who fled and did not want to fight. But not if they choose to riot here. If they are "brave" enough to attack police in Europe, then they /should/ have stayed and been brave enough to fight ISIS. If they are peaceable and non-violent, however, then I have no problems that they fled their homeland.

Frankly, being of pacifist tenancies myself, I would not have stayed to fight either. But I certainly would not choose to take up violence in my new host country.
 
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estebanrey said:
Are you seriously comparing the choice a relatively rich Westerner has with someone who's home has been destroyed and has had to flee where they live on foot with whatever they could grab, and confused why the former person is less likely to riot?

Really?

I suppose in their situation you'd just sit there in your tent in Calais peacefully starving and putting up with poor sanitation and just hope help will arrive at some point, because you wouldn't want to to cause any trouble?

Do I condone rioting and violence, of course not but your deliberate ignorance of the situation and symptoms of the trouble, and blatant attempt to use this as evidence these are just generally violent and ungrateful scumbags and therefore undeserving of any help is just asinine....to be polite.
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If it were me, I'd go home, cause I wouldn't have destroyed my passport.
 
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