Hajj pligrimage crush

Thekwango · 24 Sep 2015 at 12:29

Semple said:
Two million people to attend an event is clearly not safe.

I remember being at Macy's thanksgiving parade a couple of years ago when they have upwards of three million people attending, and that was complete and utter chaos.

Unfortunately you can't have any real crowd control when there's that many people in a small area.

the logistics of trying to organise an event with that many people must be horrendous and with the best will I can't see how people wont get hurt or injured

I've been to a few music festivals with only a small fraction of those numbers and I've seen the chaos that can ensue when there's a crowd surge with only a few 1000 folk. can't imagine what it is like multiplied a 1000 fold!

Freefaller · 24 Sep 2015 at 12:31

Sho said:
google it

I appreciate the sentiment - but it would have been better for you to post the phrase which is completely appropriate for this thread, but with a translation / explanation as to its meaning rather than the somewhat more abrasive "google it" reply.

Hitman_Leon · 24 Sep 2015 at 12:34

It does not matter if it's religion, sport, protests or a festival/concert, when you have those kinds of numbers or people common sense go's out of the window. Like throwing a pebble in a pond, one spark of panic can affect the whole crowd like a wave radiating from the impact point. When people start running, other follow, in the end no-one knows the cause, they just run because others are running.

Do they not break these crowds into manageable blocks? like traffic? to keep any panic caused to a minimum. That would make sense, blocks of people separated by a reasonable space, like a traffic light system. The space between each block allowing for runoff in case of any panic and the size of any group decided on what would present less risk in any situation.

It's a terrible thing to happen, it really does not seem as though the Saudi authorities are taking any effective steps after so many previous events of this nature.

deuse · 24 Sep 2015 at 12:34

RIP

"They converge on Mina to throw stones at pillars representing the devil." Maybe the devil has had enough of it? Very sad.

Erich Kriegler · 24 Sep 2015 at 12:41

Hitman_Leon said:
It does not matter if it's religion, sport, protests or a festival/concert, when you have those kinds of numbers or people common sense go's out of the window. Like throwing a pebble in a pond, one spark of panic can affect the whole crowd like a wave radiating from the impact point. When people start running, other follow, in the end no-one knows the cause, they just run because others are running.

Do they not break these crowds into manageable blocks? like traffic? to keep any panic caused to a minimum. That would make sense, blocks of people separated by a reasonable space, like a traffic light system. The space between each block allowing for runoff in case of any panic and the size of any group decided on what would present less risk in any situation.

It's a terrible thing to happen, it really does not seem as though the Saudi authorities are taking any effective steps after so many previous events of this nature.

Quite literally in this case

MookJong · 24 Sep 2015 at 12:49

It seems they were trying hard to avoid this by making huge and costly improvements, but clearly the whole thing needs a vast rethink. The numbers attending are only going to go up year on year.

Semple · 24 Sep 2015 at 12:59

Hitman_Leon said:
Do they not break these crowds into manageable blocks? like traffic? to keep any panic caused to a minimum. That would make sense, blocks of people separated by a reasonable space, like a traffic light system. The space between each block allowing for runoff in case of any panic and the size of any group decided on what would present less risk in any situation.

That was my thinking. In the lead up to this place they effectively need lots of bottlenecks to slow the flow of people, and also a one way system, so people who have already been don't exit out of where everyone is trying to enter.

Buddy · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:11

Freefaller said:
You quoted an inappropriate comment so it was just part of the cull. It's not a big deal. Don't worry.

My comment was not aimed to be trolling. The op had posted a link with no real discussion. Much like thekwango I was trying to get the op to expand on what his agenda really was with this thread as there is a pattern of posts like these.

Apologies if it came across another way

Hitman_Leon · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:29

In relation to crowds anywhere and what happened/could happen, this quote springs to mind from MIB.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals.

They have to be managed to minimise crush/stampede risk.

Freefaller · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:29

Not to worry.

dowie · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:33

fs123 said:
'Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un (Arabic: إِنَّا للهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ‎) is a part of a verse from the Qur'an which translates to "we belong to Allah and to him we shall return. The phrase is recited by Muslims when a person experiences a tragedy in life,[2][3] especially upon hearing news that a person has died.[3] The phrase is also recited in situation that involve risk of any sort.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inna_Lillahi_wa_inna_ilaihi_raji'un

its that sort of dumb attitude that allows it to happen in the first place

the Saudi's chuck in a few token safety measures but are also keen to reassure people not to worry as if you die during the Hajj you're assured entry to heaven...

I mean it is Allah's will after all :rolleyes:

dowie · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:35

Hitman_Leon said:
In relation to crowds anywhere and what happened/could happen, this quote springs to mind from MIB.

They have to be managed to minimise crush/stampede risk.

there is also a big factor in terms of the type of people in the crowd too

bunch of rugby/cricket fans... much less of an issue

bunch of football fans in the 80s... with a large portion of chav idiots among them - that's when you get fights, pushing shoving and tragedies... innocent fans get killed thanks to hooligans etc.. who can't behave themselves

Hitman_Leon · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:39

dowie said:
there is also a big factor in terms of the type of people in the crowd too

bunch of rugby/cricket fans... much less of an issue

bunch of football fans in the 80s... with a large portion of chav idiots among them - that's when you get fights, pushing shoving and tragedies... innocent fans get killed thanks to hooligans etc.. who can't behave themselves

I surmise in the present situation with IS making threats, someone in a crowd over there could simply drop something as they walked and any sharp noise be wrongly interpreted as a terror attack starting.

Freefaller · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:46

dowie said:
its that sort of dumb attitude that allows it to happen in the first place

the Saudi's chuck in a few token safety measures but are also keen to reassure people not to worry as if you die during the Hajj you're assured entry to heaven...

I mean it is Allah's will after all

I might have misunderstood - but I believe that's a grieving message rather than something to say for making people more aware of H&S. So I don't think it's a safety message, but rather a reactive show of condolence after a tragedy has occurred?

[TFU] Thegoon84 · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:48

I was only half way trhough the snapchat story on this... Must get interesting futher on then!

Twirlywoos · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:51

Crpwned said:
220 people die in a crush on a pilgramage, no sympathy here it seems.
96 people die in a crush at a football match and everyone goes nuts!

I despair.

You can't compare 85,000 people to 2 million attendance, although I think I know what you're getting at. They should restrict who can make the pilgrimage by culling those who have been before within the past 10 years by denying Visas. Saudi Arabia's answer is to extend the Grand Mosque but they should be doing more.

It's really tragic that it happens every year but you try telling the people of Saud about human rights. The sooner the Saud monarchy is expelled the better it will be.

MattU · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:52

dowie said:
there is also a big factor in terms of the type of people in the crowd too

bunch of rugby/cricket fans... much less of an issue

bunch of football fans in the 80s... with a large portion of chav idiots among them - that's when you get fights, pushing shoving and tragedies... innocent fans get killed thanks to hooligans etc.. who can't behave themselves

Did you work for South Yorkshire police in the 80s?

Diddums · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:54

Cosimo said:
No, shouldn't have to translate forum posts. Why post in a foreign language, is it to antagonise people or just show that you're being a bit of a wise guy?

It's one of those exclusivity things, awards a sense of empowerment knowing that people are having to go to extra lengths to read your posts.

See also (reply to thread about celebrity) "Who?".

Or "being a plank" as it's more commonly known.

Arazi · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:54

MattU said:
Did you work for South Yorkshire police in the 80s?

I was thinking the same

dowie · 24 Sep 2015 at 13:59

Freefaller said:
I might have misunderstood - but I believe that's a grieving message rather than something to say for making people more aware of H&S. So I don't think it's a safety message, but rather a reactive show of condolence after a tragedy has occurred?

I didn't say it had got anything to do with safety... it is completely removed from safety - it is sticking your head in the sand... oh they're with god now/its god's will etc..