How far is this VW thing going to go?

[EdButler]

I don't know why everyone is banging on about Diesel vs Petrol earlier in this thread. The crux of the matter to most people (who care about running cost) is that VW were fibbing on their emissions test which ALSO counts towards the MPG figures.

Id bet my bottom dollar that they've done the exact same thing on their Petrol engines also - its just a bit harder to do without variable mixture. MPG claims are over inflated these days whichever fuel you drive.

 

[Greebo]

I don't know why everyone is banging on about Diesel vs Petrol earlier in this thread. The crux of the matter to most people (who care about running cost) is that VW were fibbing on their emissions test which ALSO counts towards the MPG figures.

Id bet my bottom dollar that they've done the exact same thing on their Petrol engines also - its just a bit harder to do without variable mixture. MPG claims are over inflated these days whichever fuel you drive.

And that's where you would be incorrect. The reason they cheated the emission is that if the car ran like that so it could pass it would have WORSE performance and mpg.

Ever since it came out that diesels needed to be cleaner, fuel economy has got worse. Forget the headline 74mpg with stop/start low cc engines. The tests are so biased towards these type of cars that you would never get anywhere near that kind of mpg in real life.

Ive said this before with our company cars. The old higher CO2, more polluting and higher bhp diesel golfs averaged better fuel economy than the new "74mpg" bluemotion ones. I used to get 43 mine and 50 on a good run in my 105 bhp bluemotion whereas the older golfs were doing high 50s and one was even getting 65 mpg.

Due to the government and tax based on CO2 all the manufacturers have done is concentrate on reducing CO2 and maximising the mpg tests (you realise the vast majority of the motorway mpg test is run at 39 mph with one short acceleration to 75?) to the detriment of real life mpg.

 

[defoerate]

And that's where you would be incorrect. The reason they cheated the emission is that if the car ran like that so it could pass it would have WORSE performance and mpg.

Ever since it came out that diesels needed to be cleaner, fuel economy has got worse. Forget the headline 74mpg with stop/start low cc engines. The tests are so biased towards these type of cars that you would never get anywhere near that kind of mpg in real life.

Ive said this before with our company cars. The old higher CO2, more polluting and higher bhp diesel golfs averaged better fuel economy than the new "74mpg" bluemotion ones. I used to get 43 mine and 50 on a good run in my 105 bhp bluemotion whereas the older golfs were doing high 50s and one was even getting 65 mpg.

Due to the government and tax based on CO2 all the manufacturers have done is concentrate on reducing CO2 and maximising the mpg tests (you realise the vast majority of the motorway mpg test is run at 39 mph with one short acceleration to 75?) to the detriment of real life mpg.

This is spot on. My 16 year old VW Golf petrol 1.4 did 40 mpg, these manufacturers are just stalling the tech by any means now - regardless to the impact on the environment.

VW statement "The company stressed that all the vehicles are still safe and roadworthy." Safe to the environment? Nope.

 

[[TW]Fox]

This is spot on. My 16 year old VW Golf petrol 1.4 did 40 mpg, these manufacturers are just stalling the tech by any means now - regardless to the impact on the environment.

VW statement "The company stressed that all the vehicles are still safe and roadworthy." Safe to the environment? Nope.

They are as safe as pretty much any car sold prior to 2010, to be fair.

There is a lot of hysteria going on here - now it's a serious issue because the intent to deliberately cheat like that from a major corporation is a huge deal - but it's nothing like as bad as some people are making it out as being.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I don't know why everyone is banging on about Diesel vs Petrol earlier in this thread. The crux of the matter to most people (who care about running cost) is that VW were fibbing on their emissions test which ALSO counts towards the MPG figures.

It doesn't - not NOX.

MPG claims are over inflated these days whichever fuel you drive.

This is entirely true and IMHO is a more serious issue but it's an issue with the testing methodology used and has been for years.

 

[SDK^]

There will always be a mismatch with the quoted MPG and real world data, unless you drive exactly the same way and in identical conditions as the test carried out.

Too many people see a number and think they should achieve it regardless of how and where they drive.

 

[Kenai]

It doesn't - not NOX.



This is entirely true and IMHO is a more serious issue but it's an issue with the testing methodology used and has been for years.

Trouble is, everyone is doing their best to conflate the issues, be it media, 'experts', general public, whoever.

We've gone from 'deliberately cheated on some US based NOx tests' to 'OMG all emissions and MPG data from VW is a total lie I want a refund on my car because it might not really get the 4000000mpg the brochure says and this is CLEARLY because VW cheated on every emission test around'

 

[[TW]Fox]

There will always be a mismatch with the quoted MPG and real world data, unless you drive exactly the same way and in identical conditions as the test carried out.

Too many people see a number and think they should achieve it regardless of how and where they drive.

There is a difference between not achieving quoted figures due to driving style and conditions and not achieving quoted figures because they are conducted under strict lab conditions inside a building to a bizarre and not representative test cycle but then plastered all over marketing material as if they have any relevance whatsoever to the car buyers.

The NEDC tests appear to be the latter, not the former. But this is a simple issue. There are other ways of conducting tests - more meaningful ones. The US for example has a different testing scheme which produces two figures - City and Highway - which indicates what you could expect to receive in both of these conditions. Interestingly I have just done many thousands of miles across the US in a particular car. As part of composing this post I'm going to look up it's official fuel consumption figures and see how they compare to what I get - I got about 28-29mpg highway.

Wow - it has an official EPA figure of... 30mpg highway. So I was within 3-4% of the official figure and frankly I was hardly going to be Mr Fuel Miser when the gas was under $3 a gallon so with a little effort I reckon I could easily have exceeded the quoted figures.

I can't even do this test for my own car as there isn't a published figure for Motorway mileage. The closest is 'Extra Urban' which my car comes nowhere near.

Not getting 50mpg because you drive at 75mph and are on the brakes all the time is different to not getting 50mpg because it only gets 50mpg inside a warehouse and not at 60mph on the inside lane of the A1 in perfect conditions.

 

[Dimi]

I love how this is coming to the forefront, all because the US found out. Where's the EU and UK government in all this mess?

Corrupt fools the lot of them.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I love how this is coming to the forefront, all because the US found out. Where's the EU and UK government in all this mess?

Corrupt fools the lot of them.

Probably the worst post in the thread so far. The reason why the US found this and not the EU is not because of 'corrupt fools' at all it's because of wildly different emissions standards due to a completely different automotive culture.

 

[A.N.Other]

Took my 62 plate Rio for its first MOT on Monday, to be told there's a recall for a 'logic upgrade for the exhaust management system', which they did then and there. Coincidence?

 

[D.P.]

Nobody has 'banned diesels' properly, what we've seen so far is political posturing at best. Cities that are taking measures - such as Germany - have done so in a fairly sensible way and do so by banning the more polluting older variants rather than everything outright.

Exctly. The only occasions for actual taxes/fees for driving in a city have been applied equally to petrol and diesel cars, e.g. London.


No city will likely be able to legally charge or ban all diesel cars, what they can do is set limits for emissions that apply to all cars.

 

[D.P.]

There is a difference between not achieving quoted figures due to driving style and conditions and not achieving quoted figures because they are conducted under strict lab conditions inside a building to a bizarre and not representative test cycle but then plastered all over marketing material as if they have any relevance whatsoever to the car buyers.

The NEDC tests appear to be the latter, not the former. But this is a simple issue. There are other ways of conducting tests - more meaningful ones. The US for example has a different testing scheme which produces two figures - City and Highway - which indicates what you could expect to receive in both of these conditions. Interestingly I have just done many thousands of miles across the US in a particular car. As part of composing this post I'm going to look up it's official fuel consumption figures and see how they compare to what I get - I got about 28-29mpg highway.

Wow - it has an official EPA figure of... 30mpg highway. So I was within 3-4% of the official figure and frankly I was hardly going to be Mr Fuel Miser when the gas was under $3 a gallon so with a little effort I reckon I could easily have exceeded the quoted figures.

I can't even do this test for my own car as there isn't a published figure for Motorway mileage. The closest is 'Extra Urban' which my car comes nowhere near.

Not getting 50mpg because you drive at 75mph and are on the brakes all the time is different to not getting 50mpg because it only gets 50mpg inside a warehouse and not at 60mph on the inside lane of the A1 in perfect conditions.

My Forester surpasses the EPA highway MPG if driven sensibly (it is especially prone to speeding with it 4xauto gearbox.


I think a lot of people would actually be surprised how efficient some new US cars are. i've rented countless cars in the last few years and some of them will happily do around 40 US MPG which is like 45 UK MPG on the highway.

 

[marl]

I feel sorry for all the VW employees who this will effect who are blameless regarding this matter.

I wonder if the Executives who made this decision will be punished or shuffled off with a big handshake!!!

 

[McPhee]

This is turning in to a bloodbath. The press and the green lobby are out in force, seeking to ruin the diesel industry. While VW cheated, other manufacturers are now being dragged through the dirt for gaming the system. Diesel car emissions are under the microscope and it's no longer enough to just comply with NEDC testing. That might protect you from litigation, but it won't stop the bad publicity. Everyone and his dog is testing Diesel cars under real-world conditions now and the results aren't pretty.

It's impressive really. Diesel has gone from wonder-fuel to enemy of the state in a matter of weeks.

 

[Glaucus]

It's impressive really. Diesel has gone from wonder-fuel to enemy of the state in a matter of decades.

Fixed, where have you been.

 

[Uther]

Hmmm and I was looking at getting a 2.4L diesel XC60 in a few months!
Oh dear.

 

[thedoc46]

Hmmm and I was looking at getting a 2.4L diesel XC60 in a few months!
Oh dear.

Yeah you may want to rethink that....... POTENTIAL BABY KILLER !!!!

 

[[TW]Fox]

Hmmm and I was looking at getting a 2.4L diesel XC60 in a few months!
Oh dear.

OMG!!!!11?!? You can't possibly buy a Volvo XC60 now a different manufacturer making a different car has been cheating in tests in a country you don't live in.

Have to get a bicycle.

 

[Uther]

OMG!!!!11?!? You can't possibly buy a Volvo XC60 now a different manufacturer making a different car has been cheating in tests in a country you don't live in.

Have to get a bicycle.

Well rather pointless if I can't drive it in various cities in the near future don't you think?