Soldato
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Basically diesel is dirty and everyone is now suprised? 
How far is this VW thing going to go?
- Thread starter Diddums
- Start date
Basically diesel is dirty and everyone is now suprised?
Pretty much
Looks like my new car will be my two legs, should I expect fines for high emissions if I get a bit farty on my long walk to work?
[TW]Fox;28629719 said:
Have you missed all of the stories and studies showing the difference between rated and real-world emissions? Euro 6 isn't that big a jump. Many Euro 6 cars are pumping out as much as 14 times the emissions that the standard allows when driven normally.
The problem is simple; testing and regulation have failed to prevent manufacturers from gaming the system. Emissions ratings and real-world figures are leagues apart and will continue to be until testing is tightened, regulation is improved and manufacturers are forced to stop playing the system (or in the case of VAG, actually cheating). Until then, Euro 6, like everything that came before it, is various shades of useless.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
[TW]Fox;28629719 said:This is a completely unhelpful comment that is typically Labour – they caused the mess and now they are happy to sit on the sideline rubbing salt into the wounds. Lovely.
The Labour government created a UK car market that is obsessed with diesel by shaping the taxation system around CO2 output and maintaining some of the worlds highest fuel prices. The manufacturers then responded to this increased demand by developing more and more diesel cars to satisfy it.
On the day Labour took power, the vast majority of executive car ranges were almost entirely petrol powered. Some models had no diesel available at all. On the day they left power, the complete opposite was the case. They created this. Not the consumer. The consumer simply responded in the expected way – exactly as they were intended to.
NOX isn’t some sort of new knowledge. It has always been known that NOX is a bad thing, yet the government instead prioritised CO2 and rammed it down everyones throat as if it was the only thing that mattered and shaped buyer behaviour as a result.
Many of us have always said this was the wrong call but it was the call that was made and millions of motorists now drive diesel cars. Whilst you can try and slowly change this in the future through new car regulation what you absolutely cannot do is punish everyone who simply did what they were told by crucifying everyones car residuals with continual ‘oooh we might ban them’ rubbish.
It’s especially rich to hear former Labour government staff coming out and saying ‘Yea, this is bad’. What next, Gordon Brown saying ‘Yea, we ruined the economy’
I drive a diesel car. I do not like diesel cars. I do not need the efficiency they provide me with. I would rather drive a petrol car. But I don’t have one because the work Labour and the rest of the EU did whilst in power created a market where for the model of car I wanted to buy, 99% of them are diesel and unless you get very lucky or factory order a brand new one you can simply not easily find a petrol car in the specification I want.
Create a world of high fuel prices and random CO2 taxation and you get a world full of diesel cars. Look at a world where there is no CO2 based taxation and low fuel prices – like, I dunno, the USA and… oh, you have hardly any diesels..
BTW, we are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted anyway – the damage diesel does is in the past in terms of new cars (Ok, hi VW). Euro 6 standards are sufficiently tough as to have massively improved the situation and any new car sold today MUST be Euro 6 compliant. The issue is the older diesel cars – an issue that will go away on its own as these cars go out of service.
Which for a typical diesel won’t be long as nobody wants to shell out thousands of quid to fix all the junk fitted to them once they hit 8 years old anyway.
The interesting thing is all of this has almost nothing to do with the VW thing anyway which it seems the vast majority of people have not bothered to understand, hence some of the comments in this thread.
Absolutely spot on and very well put. Best post I have read all year!
[TW]Fox;28629882 said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting it isn't. But NEDC testing is so unrepresentative of real-world driving, and manufacturers have become so good at 'optimising' their vehicles for the test environment, that a car being Euro 6 compliant isn't a very good indicator of that car's real-world emissions. Cars are being signed off as being Euro 6 compliant and then, under normal driving conditions, are pumping out as much as 14 times the Euro 6 limit. How is that not a problem?
The damage is in the past? Doesn't look that way from here.
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I think the point is that if Euro 6 "compliant" cars are pumping out 14 times the Euro 6 limit, how much are non-Euro 6 compliant cars pumping out?
As I posted in the other thread in motors, it seems there is a new test coming in 2017, still a laboratory one, but based more on real world driving. And currently only 25% of the 79 new cars ADTA tested would pass the Euro 6 levels under the new test, even though they pass the current one.
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...llution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show
And even though this has erupted from the US, it has been brewing for a while since people have been confused why NOx and other pollutants haven't been dropping in Europe even though the car manufacturers have been publishing ever cleaner emmission results.
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...llution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show
And even though this has erupted from the US, it has been brewing for a while since people have been confused why NOx and other pollutants haven't been dropping in Europe even though the car manufacturers have been publishing ever cleaner emmission results.
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It's good but if we all know how bad NOX is, then surely the CEO's and scientists in R&D departments at these car manufacturers know how bad it is also.
It's correct to blame government for it's CO2 obsession but these manufacturers are psychotic to keep producing these motors.
I'm not sure you can call a business psychotic for creating products for a market that is engineered for it.
Immoral perhaps.
[TW]Fox;28629719 said:This is a completely unhelpful comment that is typically Labour – they caused the mess and now they are happy to sit on the sideline rubbing salt into the wounds. Lovely.
The Labour government created a UK car market that is obsessed with diesel by shaping the taxation system around CO2 output and maintaining some of the worlds highest fuel prices. The manufacturers then responded to this increased demand by developing more and more diesel cars to satisfy it.
On the day Labour took power, the vast majority of executive car ranges were almost entirely petrol powered. Some models had no diesel available at all. On the day they left power, the complete opposite was the case. They created this. Not the consumer. The consumer simply responded in the expected way – exactly as they were intended to.
NOX isn’t some sort of new knowledge. It has always been known that NOX is a bad thing, yet the government instead prioritised CO2 and rammed it down everyones throat as if it was the only thing that mattered and shaped buyer behaviour as a result.
Many of us have always said this was the wrong call but it was the call that was made and millions of motorists now drive diesel cars. Whilst you can try and slowly change this in the future through new car regulation what you absolutely cannot do is punish everyone who simply did what they were told by crucifying everyones car residuals with continual ‘oooh we might ban them’ rubbish.
It’s especially rich to hear former Labour government staff coming out and saying ‘Yea, this is bad’. What next, Gordon Brown saying ‘Yea, we ruined the economy’
I drive a diesel car. I do not like diesel cars. I do not need the efficiency they provide me with. I would rather drive a petrol car. But I don’t have one because the work Labour and the rest of the EU did whilst in power created a market where for the model of car I wanted to buy, 99% of them are diesel and unless you get very lucky or factory order a brand new one you can simply not easily find a petrol car in the specification I want.
Create a world of high fuel prices and random CO2 taxation and you get a world full of diesel cars. Look at a world where there is no CO2 based taxation and low fuel prices – like, I dunno, the USA and… oh, you have hardly any diesels..
BTW, we are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted anyway – the damage diesel does is in the past in terms of new cars (Ok, hi VW). Euro 6 standards are sufficiently tough as to have massively improved the situation and any new car sold today MUST be Euro 6 compliant. The issue is the older diesel cars – an issue that will go away on its own as these cars go out of service.
Which for a typical diesel won’t be long as nobody wants to shell out thousands of quid to fix all the junk fitted to them once they hit 8 years old anyway.
The interesting thing is all of this has almost nothing to do with the VW thing anyway which it seems the vast majority of people have not bothered to understand, hence some of the comments in this thread.
I think this is probably the POTM so I've copied & Pastad' it onto my FB.
There are some Rank Labour Lefties on it that I'm pretty sure this is going to put their noses out of joint !
Basically diesel is dirty and everyone is now suprised?
Diesel isn't dirty, it burns hotter producing more energy which provides better fuel efficiency and lower CO2 output. the downside of the higher temperatures is it is more reactive To atmospheric nitrogen.
It's not as though the motor industry has a history of covering up things such as dangerously defective fuel tanks (Ford Pinto) or ignition systems (Chevy Cobalt) amongst others
You can always trust big business to do the right thing when it comes to the safety of their customers - as The Insider demonstrated about the tobacco industry...
Immoral definately, to keep producing these motors year on year [on year..] knowing the damage it's doing to the environment just for financial gain. Sounds crazy to me.
You could say that about any car, plane, truck
Presumably you don't own a vehicle with an internal combustion engine? The emissions from any internal combustion engine are dangerous. Some more so than others but they are all dangerous.
Have you seen the damage manufacturing computer parts does to the environment? I bet you, as most of us here will, buy those!
No, keep talking bad about VW and emissions, that increases the chances that the startup I work for is bought out and I can retire a millionaire!
[TW]Fox;28631399 said:You could say that about any car, plane, truck
Presumably you don't own a vehicle with an internal combustion engine? The emissions from any internal combustion engine are dangerous. Some more so than others but they are all dangerous.
Have you seen the damage manufacturing computer parts does to the environment? I bet you, as most of us here will, buy those!
Don't be intentionally stupid. You know what he meant.
It is immoral for manufacturers to release cars that meet emissions standards only after implementing extreme measures. It is immoral for them to release cars in to the marketplace that spew out up to 14 times the legal limit.
Believing that these things are immoral does not mean that someone needs to abandon modern technology and take up a 100% ecofriendly lifestyle. Owning a car, a computer, is a reality of modern life. It is perfectly reasonable to want these things, but to also want them to have a lowered impact on the environment.
Surely that's the point behind all of this green legislation? To allow the modern world to function while reducing the negative impact that we're having on the planet? Clearly, VW and others are more concerned with profit than with doing the right thing. That's fine, but they shouldn't expect it to not have a negative effect on their business going forward.
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[TW]Fox;28629719 said:This is a completely unhelpful comment that is typically Labour – they caused the mess and now they are happy to sit on the sideline rubbing salt into the wounds. Lovely.
The Labour government created a UK car market that is obsessed with diesel by shaping the taxation system around CO2 output and maintaining some of the worlds highest fuel prices. The manufacturers then responded to this increased demand by developing more and more diesel cars to satisfy it.
On the day Labour took power, the vast majority of executive car ranges were almost entirely petrol powered. Some models had no diesel available at all. On the day they left power, the complete opposite was the case. They created this. Not the consumer. The consumer simply responded in the expected way – exactly as they were intended to.
NOX isn’t some sort of new knowledge. It has always been known that NOX is a bad thing, yet the government instead prioritised CO2 and rammed it down everyones throat as if it was the only thing that mattered and shaped buyer behaviour as a result.
Many of us have always said this was the wrong call but it was the call that was made and millions of motorists now drive diesel cars. Whilst you can try and slowly change this in the future through new car regulation what you absolutely cannot do is punish everyone who simply did what they were told by crucifying everyones car residuals with continual ‘oooh we might ban them’ rubbish.
It’s especially rich to hear former Labour government staff coming out and saying ‘Yea, this is bad’. What next, Gordon Brown saying ‘Yea, we ruined the economy’
I drive a diesel car. I do not like diesel cars. I do not need the efficiency they provide me with. I would rather drive a petrol car. But I don’t have one because the work Labour and the rest of the EU did whilst in power created a market where for the model of car I wanted to buy, 99% of them are diesel and unless you get very lucky or factory order a brand new one you can simply not easily find a petrol car in the specification I want.
Create a world of high fuel prices and random CO2 taxation and you get a world full of diesel cars. Look at a world where there is no CO2 based taxation and low fuel prices – like, I dunno, the USA and… oh, you have hardly any diesels..
BTW, we are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted anyway – the damage diesel does is in the past in terms of new cars (Ok, hi VW). Euro 6 standards are sufficiently tough as to have massively improved the situation and any new car sold today MUST be Euro 6 compliant. The issue is the older diesel cars – an issue that will go away on its own as these cars go out of service.
Which for a typical diesel won’t be long as nobody wants to shell out thousands of quid to fix all the junk fitted to them once they hit 8 years old anyway.
The interesting thing is all of this has almost nothing to do with the VW thing anyway which it seems the vast majority of people have not bothered to understand, hence some of the comments in this thread.
Ah yes, the Tories have done so much to rectify and undo all this damage since they took power haven't they. Those changes to the UK road tax laws have seriously impacted the diesel car industry.
Both are as bad as each other screwing the public and making sure big business keeps on profiting at ours, and the environments expense.
Labour may have got it wrong, but they're first out the gate calling for change. Lord Drayson, Science Minister under Gordon Brown was on Radio 4 earlier. He quite clearly admitted that Labour had gotten it wrong on Diesel, stating that the problems are much better understood now than they were 10 years ago. He called on the government to take radical action, suggesting vehicle exclusion zones, more rigorous testing, changes to VED and a scrappage scheme to get the worst Diesel cars off the road.