How far is this VW thing going to go?

ICDP said:
Ah yes, the Tories have done so much to rectify and undo all this damage since they took power haven't they. Those changes to the UK road tax laws have seriously impacted the diesel car industry. :rolleyes:
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My post was in reply to a news article about a former Labour minister :confused:

The changes to the UK road tax system introduced at the budget have largely removed the free tax on small diesels and reduces the penalisation for larger petrol engined cars, btw.
 
satchef1 said:
Labour may have got it wrong, but they're first out the gate calling for change. Lord Drayson, Science Minister under Gordon Brown was on Radio 4 earlier. He quite clearly admitted that Labour had gotten it wrong on Diesel, stating that the problems are much better understood now than they were 10 years ago. He called on the government to take radical action, suggesting vehicle exclusion zones, more rigorous testing, changes to VED and a scrappage scheme to get the worst Diesel cars off the road.
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So nothing to do with his "clean energy" investment buisness? Wonder why he would be saying these things now hmmmmm
 
gettothechopper said:
So nothing to do with his "clean energy" investment buisness? Wonder why he would be saying these things now hmmmmm
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I noticed that too - I'm not normally one for conspiracy rubbish but given what he does now it did make me think 'Well obviously he'd make a point about that NOW...'
 
D.P. said:
Diesel isn't dirty, it burns hotter producing more energy which provides better fuel efficiency and lower CO2 output. the downside of the higher temperatures is it is more reactive To atmospheric nitrogen.
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That's due to excess of air rather than combustion temp.... Let alone the soot.

It's dirty, I hate filling up diesel cars aswell.
 
Haggisman said:
I think the point is that if Euro 6 "compliant" cars are pumping out 14 times the Euro 6 limit, how much are non-Euro 6 compliant cars pumping out?
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A BBC test shown on the news this evening:

A Euro 5 diesel VW:
0.180g/km NOx limit
0.664g/km actual figure under normal driving conditions

A Euro 6 diesel Ford:
0.8g/km NOx limit
0.422g/km actual

In their test, both are way above their respective limits. While the test is too limited to draw broad conclusions, the Euro 5 car emitted more NOx than the Euro 6, but the Euro 6 car was 4 times over the limit versus the Euro 5 car's 3 times over the limit. It's an improvement, but not really sufficient.

TBH though, 14 times over the limit (Nissan X-Trail) is ridiculous. That's higher than the Euro 1 limit and certainly draws the question, how much have things improved really? Euro 1 limited NOx to 0.97g/km back in 1993. Over the past 22 years, NOx levels should have fallen to just 0.82% of that figure. Clearly, this hasn't happened.

It isn't just down to the manufacturers though. It would be unfair to place all of the blame with them when the regulations and testing process are so inept as to allow this to happen. Testing has clearly failed.

The crux of the matter is this: performance under testing appears to bare little reflection on emissions performance under normal conditions. As such, there are no real limits on how much NOx, CO2 and particulates an engine can pump out in to the atmosphere once the car hits the market. This has resulted in independent testing finding a range of 2-14 times the legal limit on new Euro 6 cars. This should not be happening and is the result of lax regulation, ineffective testing and manufacturers that are quite happy as long as consumers think they're doing the 'right' thing.
 
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satchef1 said:
A BBC test shown on the news this evening:

A Euro 5 diesel VW:
0.180g/km NOx limit
0.664g/km actual figure under normal driving conditions

A Euro 6 diesel Ford:
0.8g/km NOx limit
0.422g/km actual

In their test, both are way above their respective limits. While the test is too limited to draw broad conclusions, the Euro 5 car emitted more NOx than the Euro 6, but the Euro 6 car was 4 times over the limit versus the Euro 5 car's 3 times over the limit. It's an improvement, but not really sufficient.

TBH though, 14 times over the limit (Nissan X-Trail) is ridiculous. That's higher than the Euro 1 limit and certainly draws the question, how much have things improved really? Euro 1 limited NOx to 0.97g/km back in 1993. Over the past 22 years, NOx levels should have fallen to just 0.82% of that figure. Clearly, this hasn't happened.

It isn't just down to the manufacturers though. It would be unfair to place all of the blame with them when the regulations and testing process are so inept as to allow this to happen. Testing has clearly failed.

The crux of the matter is this: performance under testing appears to bare little reflection on emissions performance under normal conditions. As such, there are no real limits on how much NOx, CO2 and particulates an engine can pump out in to the atmosphere once the car hits the market. This has resulted in independent testing finding a range of 2-14 times the legal limit on new Euro 6 cars. This should not be happening and is the result of lax regulation, ineffective testing and manufacturers that are quite happy as long as consumers think they're doing the 'right' thing.
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Your figures make no sense. The Ford's actual figure is just over half the limit :/
 
Problem is it's the authorities bowing down to the pressure of industry. It's been talked about for years about making the mpg test more real life and the industry has fought that tooth and nail. The new test has been decided on and proposed to come in in 2020 but the industry has been lobbying hard to get that put back for several more years.
 
No surprise there. In fact I'm surprise 5 models actually passed in the real world. I bit they are 1.2l diesels as well.

I think it's alway been known in real life diesels pump out more pollutants than the lab test, same as they don't do the same mpg.

This would have course be fine if the limits for the lab test took account that in real life it will be three or four times higher. In which case the limits should be a quarter of what they have been.

Problem with that , as can be seen from the link, only 10% of current diesel models would pass and be on the road.

Which would have basically mean no diesels sold for the last 10 years

And with the new real world tests I'm not sure any car manufacturer could reach those limits with any diesel car over the smallest engine.
 
Greebo said:
No surprise there. In fact I'm surprise 5 models actually passed in the real world. I bit they are 1.2l diesels as well.

I think it's alway been known in real life diesels pump out more pollutants than the lab test, same as they don't do the same mpg.

This would have course be fine if the limits for the lab test took account that in real life it will be three or four times higher. In which case the limits should be a quarter of what they have been.

Problem with that , as can be seen from the link, only 10% of current diesel models would pass and be on the road.

Which would have basically mean no diesels sold for the last 10 years

And with the new real world tests I'm not sure any car manufacturer could reach those limits with any diesel car over the smallest engine.
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"ACEA, which lobbies for Europe’s carmakers in Brussels, told the officials on 1 October that the NOx limit for a new, more realistic test should be 70% higher than today’s limit." Guardian.

The manufacturers are coming together to lobby for higher NOx limits.

Also turns out that loads of VW's can't be fixed just by a software update and may need a new catalytic convertor or fuel tank. In these cases it's being rumoured that VW might offer full refunds for people that don't want the car anymore.
 
I wouldn't be against seeing a higher NOx limit that's more strictly enforced. The current problem isn't so much that cars are over, but that they can be over by a wide range of different figures. Performance under testing has no bearing on real-world performance. It isn't good enough that some cars are 30% over and others are 1300% over. Increasing the limit by 70% can only be a positive move if it means all new cars actually hit that figure.
 
satchef1 said:
I wouldn't be against seeing a higher NOx limit that's more strictly enforced. The current problem isn't so much that cars are over, but that they can be over by a wide range of different figures. Performance under testing has no bearing on real-world performance. It isn't good enough that some cars are 30% over and others are 1300% over. Increasing the limit by 70% can only be a positive move if it means all new cars actually hit that figure.
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I think politicians need to be realistic. They can't have both higher MPG and lower emissions with the current technology.
 
defoerate said:
Also turns out that loads of VW's can't be fixed just by a software update and may need a new catalytic convertor or fuel tank. In these cases it's being rumoured that VW might offer full refunds for people that don't want the car anymore.
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Source for that?

Pretty sure no new information has come out of VW and even if it had, new cats and fuel tanks makes absolutely zero sense, why would a car need a different fuel tank to reduce NOx emissions? Whatever you've read / heard sounds like complete nonsense to me.

There is still no concrete information about what VW will do to fix it but as it was last week, nothing I've seen suggests any cars outside the US will need anything beyond software changes to remove the test detection feature.
 
Fox was there anything to suggest the software fix is going to anything other than remove test mode?
Will the car basically be the same, pumping out the same as it does all the time, but not enter test mode anymore when it detects a test setup?
 
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