Auf Wiedersehen Mercedes, Kon'nichiwa replacement car

[lemonade]

It isn't purely a badge thing.

It is, most of it is in the head, people just have a pre-conceived idea that German cars are perfect and everything else falls short, so go into a Lexus nitpicking about virtually nothing, then theres the fact that a Lexus simply isn't a Mercedes, BMW or Audi, so not enough brand verve to show off in.

 

[lemonade]

Lexus only sell about 600 GS's a year. That is one of the things I like. Overall, Lexus only have about 0.5% market share in the UK and sold under 13k cars in the UK last year. It is nice to be on a large client with work and not see another GS.

Might be good for people who like the exclusivity, its something that a luxury premium car should be, brands like Merc et al are really mainstream brands now. I know Lexus like their cars being exclusive and not massively fussed about sales figures, but Lexus don't make any profit in Europe if I remember correctly, so I do wonder how long they can carry on like that, especially when other brands have entered that market or have rebuilt themselves, i.e your Infiniti's and Jaguars, then Hyundai is also looking into the market, the Equus is a really impressive car.

 

[[TW]Fox]

It is, most of it is in the head, people just have a pre-conceived idea that German cars are perfect and everything else falls short, so go into a Lexus nitpicking about virtually nothing, then theres the fact that a Lexus simply isn't a Mercedes, BMW or Audi, so not enough brand verve to show off in.

Obviously it will be a badge thing for a few people but I have driven quite a few cars in this segment, some extensively, and the areas where the German cars typically excel over the Japanese equivalents is not just the badge on the steering wheel.

It is mostly interiors and user interfaces they consistently miss the mark on, often the sort of thing you don't notice until you live with a car for a bit.

I always hope that they do get it one day as the Japanese beat the crap out of the competition when it comes to customer service and reliability.

 

[Pyscho_Si]

Might be good for people who like the exclusivity, its something that a luxury premium car should be, brands like Merc et al are really mainstream brands now. I know Lexus like their cars being exclusive and not massively fussed about sales figures, but Lexus don't make any profit in Europe if I remember correctly, so I do wonder how long they can carry on like that, especially when other brands have entered that market or have rebuilt themselves, i.e your Infiniti's and Jaguars, then Hyundai is also looking into the market, the Equus is a really impressive car.

I looked at Infiniti. Nice dealers, crap cars. Ugly on the outside and questionable quality inside. The Renault 3L diesel is slow and thirsty and they somehow managed to make the 2.1l Mercedes unit more tractor like. The V6 petrol is suppose to sound nice but is also thirsty and on all accounts the fly by wire steering is suppose to be interesting. On top of that, they don't seem to have things like service plans sorted.

The Hyundai Genesis looks interesting except for an engine totally unsuitable for the European market.

Let's not forget Lexus is part of Toyota and therefore not exactly a small brand. The ES and NX are very similar underneath to their Toyata cousins.

The CT and IS seems to sell quite well in the UK.

 

[sigma]

The 450h does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds which is hardly slow.

I'd be looking at the IS to be honest... the GS is just going to be too wafty for me.

They don't to an IS 450h.

 

[sigma]

Might be good for people who like the exclusivity, its something that a luxury premium car should be, brands like Merc et al are really mainstream brands now. I know Lexus like their cars being exclusive and not massively fussed about sales figures, but Lexus don't make any profit in Europe if I remember correctly, so I do wonder how long they can carry on like that, especially when other brands have entered that market or have rebuilt themselves, i.e your Infiniti's and Jaguars, then Hyundai is also looking into the market, the Equus is a really impressive car.

I do see quite a few of the new model IS. Must be cheap as a company car, I guess.

 

[lemonade]

Obviously it will be a badge thing for a few people but I have driven quite a few cars in this segment, some extensively, and the areas where the German cars typically excel over the Japanese equivalents is not just the badge on the steering wheel.

It is mostly interiors and user interfaces they consistently miss the mark on, often the sort of thing you don't notice until you live with a car for a bit.

I always hope that they do get it one day as the Japanese beat the crap out of the competition when it comes to customer service and reliability.

That's what I mean, people make a fuss over and will write one off because it has the same A/C on button as an Avensis, whilst ignoring the fact that BMW also make cars with cheap plastic trims, and trims that wear bad and peel off.

As for user interface, I assume you mean all the fancy touch screen and idrive stuff. How many people actually spec up and buy cars with all that?

I looked at Infiniti. Nice dealers, crap cars. Ugly on the outside and questionable quality inside. The Renault 3L diesel is slow and thirsty and they somehow managed to make the 2.1l Mercedes unit more tractor like. The V6 petrol is suppose to sound nice but is also thirsty and on all accounts the fly by wire steering is suppose to be interesting. On top of that, they don't seem to have things like service plans sorted.

The Hyundai Genesis looks interesting except for an engine totally unsuitable for the European market.

Let's not forget Lexus is part of Toyota and therefore not exactly a small brand. The ES and NX are very similar underneath to their Toyata cousins.

The CT and IS seems to sell quite well in the UK.

Them being a child of Toyota is the only reason they stay a float really and probably also the profit they make from N/A market, otherwise they would not be able to survive.

To be fair to Lexus though, the German brands do tend to sell mostly to the fleet market hence the vastly more of them on the roads.

 

[xs2man]

That's what I mean, people make a fuss over and will write one off because it has the same A/C on button as an Avensis, whilst ignoring the fact that BMW also make cars with cheap plastic trims, and trims that wear bad and peel off.

As for user interface, I assume you mean all the fancy touch screen and idrive stuff. How many people actually spec up and buy cars with all that?

I would suspect almost everyone? I certainly wouldn't be considering an executive car without all that fancy trickery. That's the stuff you actually notice day to day. And that is why the Germans sell so well.

The dull drive of an Audi is almost irrelevant for most people. Most people in the market for such vehicles don't drive like a hooligan on the twisty stuff. Most of these cars are sat on the motorway pumping out miles after mile, or in the city, stopping and starting constantly. Very few of them will be blasting back roads.

And that's why the interior gizmos and layout are so important. The Lexus probably has them all matched on exterior looks to be fair. But these cars sell for how it feels on the inside more than how it drives down a back road. And that'll be why you don't see so many Lexii out and about. It's not the badge as much as the interior.

This thread does remind me to look at a Lexus when I next buy a car. Just a shame the nearest dealer is 100 miles away

 

[Rilot]

What on earth are you on about Lemonade? Of course people spec up iDrive and touchscreens. In fact nav is standard on pretty much every BMW now.
I do agree with Fox about the user interfaces. Lexus would do well to hire someone from BMW or Audi to advise on how to do infotainment. They have all the technical stuff perfect but the interfaces themselves tend to be less pretty and less useable.

 

[Pyscho_Si]

What on earth are you on about Lemonade? Of course people spec up iDrive and touchscreens. In fact nav is standard on pretty much every BMW now.
I do agree with Fox about the user interfaces. Lexus would do well to hire someone from BMW or Audi to advise on how to do infotainment. They have all the technical stuff perfect but the interfaces themselves tend to be less pretty and less useable.

Tbh, I was a bit worried about the Lexus interface but it isn't as bad as I thought. It is better than the Mercedes Command interface. The left handed mouse controller takes a little getting use to and now and again it misses the letter you want, but a lot of the commands are duplicated on the steering wheel controls or through voice commands.

The split screen works really well, nav in a bit window, iPod in a smaller one.

Mine issue is Lexus utilising DUN protocol for the online services, something iPhones have never supported.

 

[[TW]Fox]

That's what I mean, people make a fuss over and will write one off because it has the same A/C on button as an Avensis, whilst ignoring the fact that BMW also make cars with cheap plastic trims, and trims that wear bad and peel off.

BMW do make cars with cheap plastic trims, I agree. As a result I do not like those cars and am vocal on here in my criticism of them despite the badge on the front.

When you a buying a car in the executive segment you do not want Toyota Avensis switchgear etc. If you were not bothered about that sort of thing there are loads of great cars which are much cheaper than this class of car.

As for user interface, I assume you mean all the fancy touch screen and idrive stuff. How many people actually spec up and buy cars with all that?

And here we get to the nub of the matter - you've probably got very limited experience with these cars. Which is fine, but it's a bit rich to then accuse everyone of preferring them as just badge snobs.

If you were more familiar with these products you would know that in this particular class the 'fancy touch screen or idrive stuff' has been standard fit on:

BMW 5 Series from 2003 onwards
Audi A6 from 2004 onwards
Mercedes E Class from 2009 onwards.

You do not spec them - they are as standard. And whilst I'm sure many people do not care about that sort of thing for others its an important part of the car. I am constantly amazed at just how 'right' BMW have got iDrive when I try similar systems in other cars.

If I could get everything a 5 Series offers me from a Japanese manufacturer I would absolutely buy such a car - I wouldn't then have to be so bothered about maintaining a warranty for a start!

 

[lemonade]

BMW do make cars with cheap plastic trims, I agree. As a result I do not like those cars and am vocal on here in my criticism of them despite the badge on the front.

When you a buying a car in the executive segment you do not want Toyota Avensis switchgear etc. If you were not bothered about that sort of thing there are loads of great cars which are much cheaper than this class of car.



And here we get to the nub of the matter - you've probably got very limited experience with these cars. Which is fine, but it's a bit rich to then accuse everyone of preferring them as just badge snobs.

If you were more familiar with these products you would know that in this particular class the 'fancy touch screen or idrive stuff' has been standard fit on:

BMW 5 Series from 2003 onwards
Audi A6 from 2004 onwards
Mercedes E Class from 2009 onwards.

You do not spec them - they are as standard. And whilst I'm sure many people do not care about that sort of thing for others its an important part of the car. I am constantly amazed at just how 'right' BMW have got iDrive when I try similar systems in other cars.

If I could get everything a 5 Series offers me from a Japanese manufacturer I would absolutely buy such a car - I wouldn't then have to be so bothered about maintaining a warranty for a start!

I don't know about you but if I was buy a 'premium executive' car, the use of one or two switchgear (which are very good quality) from another car would not bother me at all if the car ticks all the boxes, these are small irrelevant issues. If I payed big bucks for a premium car I wouldn't expect rattly interiors, poor reliability, fake leather, cheap trims, poor customer service etc. Those are all the opposite of what I would expect of a premium product.

As for the touchscreen (which wasn't my point about badge snobbery, this has existed long before touch screens came to the scene), I do have very little experience with them, I've only ever used one in an Audi, but I can totally see the point that a rubbish interface totally sucks, so I don't disagree with that, but I seriously doubt most people buy, lease etc their cars based on this factor, a buyer and owner like you is probably a rare one, most people from my own experience do not think like that.

Pretty much everyone I know who owns a German car buy it because its got a badge with street cred and they automatically assume its perfect in every way due to old cliches about german cars and far eastern tat that seem to be continuously recycled.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I don't know about you but if I was buy a 'premium executive' car,

You say 'if' but are discussing this with those who *have* bought them. We are telling you what it is that makes us buy them.

the use of one or two switchgear (which are very good quality) from another car would not bother me at all if the car ticks all the boxes, these are small irrelevant issues. If I payed big bucks for a premium car I wouldn't expect rattly interiors, poor reliability, fake leather, cheap trims, poor customer service etc. Those are all the opposite of what I would expect of a premium product.

Nobody rejects a car because one button isn't very good but a plethora of cheap switches often covered with long textual explanations of what they do reduces the ambience of an interior and cheapens the product. The Infiniti I put 4500 miles on last month was full of this sort of stuff.

I kinda feel a bit for the OP here though as we've moved onto generic Jap v German and I've no idea how the current gen GS compares

As for the touchscreen (which wasn't my point about badge snobbery, this has existed long before touch screens came to the scene), I do have very little experience with them, I've only ever used one in an Audi,

I didn't think any of the Audi systems were touch screen (Which is a good thing as touch screen in a car really doesn't work. Guess what the Infiniti had...)

but I can totally see the point that a rubbish interface totally sucks, so I don't disagree with that, but I seriously doubt most people buy, lease etc their cars based on this factor, a buyer and owner like you is probably a rare one, most people from my own experience do not think like that.

Not one factor alone but it adds to a list of factors. And given that increasingly in cars these days almost everything you do with the car bar actually drive it is through these infotainment interfaces one that sucks can be a constant source of frustration.

Pretty much everyone I know who owns a German car buy it because its got a badge with street cred and they automatically assume its perfect in every way due to old cliches about german cars and far eastern tat that seem to be continuously recycled.

I don't deny these people exist. They do. And they are annoying because they are the cause of a market full of Mercedes Benz A160 CDI AMG Sport Mega Plus Ultra AMG SUPER SPORT's with 19 inch rims, chrome trim everywhere ant a 50bhp diesel engine, but despite the existence of these people there exist many German cars where the core product just feels so right in a way that so far Lexus, Infiniti et al have yet to perfect.

The Q50 I had was a perfect example of this. On paper this thing knocked the **** out of the Germans. Fantastic powerful engine. Great handling. Etc etc... but once you lived with it little sources of frustration popped out all the time.

Perhaps we need a Jap v German thread or something so it doesn't sound like we are all hating on Pyscho_Si's new car, which does frankly sound fairly awesome, especially that brilliant powertrain showing that you CAN get power and economy without a diesel engine.

 

[pepsilol]

I think we can all agree that Toyotas UIs are utterly ****.

HOWEVER

My dad found super easy to use compared to the Germans...so who's right who's wrong.

 

[Del Lardo]

Fuel consumption on the motorway is about 10% down on my diesel (getting about 46MPG instead of 49MPG on my commute to my client at the moment) and much better in town. It is very freaky driving around on the electric motor... need to get use to that. Main reason for going petrol was an increase from 12p to 22p a mile on my mileage allowance.
.

Is 46mpg at 70mph and computer indicated or measured tank to tank?

Really like my previous gen 450h and the new ones looks great IMO, had a look at one last week but decided to wait until they depreciate a bit more (shouldn't take long).

Enjoy, much improved interior and fantastic waftability. Oh, and you'll struggle to buy another non-Lexus, I spent quite a while over summer looking at supposedly high end cars that didn't included, heated/cooled/fully electric/memory seats. Madness!

 

[lemonade]

You say 'if' but are discussing this with those who *have* bought them. We are telling you what it is that makes us buy them.



Nobody rejects a car because one button isn't very good but a plethora of cheap switches often covered with long textual explanations of what they do reduces the ambience of an interior and cheapens the product. The Infiniti I put 4500 miles on last month was full of this sort of stuff.

I kinda feel a bit for the OP here though as we've moved onto generic Jap v German and I've no idea how the current gen GS compares



I didn't think any of the Audi systems were touch screen (Which is a good thing as touch screen in a car really doesn't work. Guess what the Infiniti had...)



Not one factor alone but it adds to a list of factors. And given that increasingly in cars these days almost everything you do with the car bar actually drive it is through these infotainment interfaces one that sucks can be a constant source of frustration.



I don't deny these people exist. They do. And they are annoying because they are the cause of a market full of Mercedes Benz A160 CDI AMG Sport Mega Plus Ultra AMG SUPER SPORT's with 19 inch rims, chrome trim everywhere ant a 50bhp diesel engine, but despite the existence of these people there exist many German cars where the core product just feels so right in a way that so far Lexus, Infiniti et al have yet to perfect.

The Q50 I had was a perfect example of this. On paper this thing knocked the **** out of the Germans. Fantastic powerful engine. Great handling. Etc etc... but once you lived with it little sources of frustration popped out all the time.

Perhaps we need a Jap v German thread or something so it doesn't sound like we are all hating on Pyscho_Si's new car, which does frankly sound fairly awesome, especially that brilliant powertrain showing that you CAN get power and economy without a diesel engine.

The "if" was just a comment on how I see things.

I've yet to come across a Lexus with a plethora of cheap switches.

The Audi had a knob thing on the transmission console bit, wasnt anything fancy, radio controls and suspension adjustment, had a mini display on binnacle too aswell as the steering controls for it, nice enough but nothing fancy or anything that stood out to me, but the A6's, A8's etc probably have more advanced touchscreens, displays whatever they are call.

My point was a general point about Lexus, past and present and not just about current ranges with their modern gadgets. I was just highlighting the attitude and mindset that most people seem to have and how they perceive things, yes I completely agree different people have different needs and the way they like things to work, look, operate whatever, I just think its a bit unfair the way Lexus still seems to be burdened with old cliches about Japanese cars and even the "bigger/posher Toyota" tag some lumber them with, I guess some people will never accept them in the same league as premium German cars.

Anyway I didn't mean to turn this into a jap v german thing so i'll end it there.

 

[lemonade]

Is 46mpg at 70mph and computer indicated or measured tank to tank?

Really like my previous gen 450h and the new ones looks great IMO, had a look at one last week but decided to wait until they depreciate a bit more (shouldn't take long).

Enjoy, much improved interior and fantastic waftability. Oh, and you'll struggle to buy another non-Lexus, I spent quite a while over summer looking at supposedly high end cars that didn't included, heated/cooled/fully electric/memory seats. Madness!

The upcoming GS-F looks very very tasty too, will be great with the N/A V8 if they get all the driving side of it sorted.

 

[Pyscho_Si]

Is 46mpg at 70mph and computer indicated or measured tank to tank?

Indicated .... I haven't used my first tank yet. So I guess actually is about 42mpg. Also the journey is 26 miles on the motorway and another 20 on a mixture of town roads, country lanes and 20mph through villages. My Merc on a good day doing the same journey would show an indicated 48/49mpg, so I'm very happy and more importantly quids in on my expense policy with work.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Hmmm the economy figure is somewhat less impressive then - the E350 CDI is hardly known for being a fuel miser and a 7ish mpg difference is pretty much exactly what I'm finding between my old 530i and my 530d. 42mpg @ 70mph is the sort of economy the N53 engined 530i's were managing without any hybrid powertrain.

 

[weeble]

Genuinely like these although curious how these fair in the snow/ice given the weight of the hybrid batteries in the boot. Logic being the weight on the back wheels should help get the traction down (like RWD drivers putting a sack in the boot).

Also, chances are you won't loose the car in the sea of german cars so easliy.