Evil Buy To Let Landlord demands rent from students after their friend dies(Daily Mail)

MichaelAwkward · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:27

Regardless, he started work in the property whilst rent was still being paid without giving them notice.

Should be a pretty simple defeat for him.

Caged · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:32

dowie said:
Why is he a dick for that though? It isn't clear it is the best course of action to take the 'compromise' even anyway - you don't know how much the court action is costing him or the assessment on his side of what his chances are of succeeding.

Because it's totally acceptable to show a bit of compassion, even if it costs you a relatively small amount of money. I don't agree that taking a compromise in this instance would set a precedence because people are unlikely to start murdering their housemates to move out of a house early.

At the base level some students were shook up after their housemate died, they took some bad advice from the university and wanted to terminate their tenancy. They offered to compromise on what was owed, but the landlord didn't see this as acceptable, and decided that the issue could only be resolved through legal channels. And now they are taking some bad press for it. The only people who are going to win are the lawyers.

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:41

Caged said:
Because it's totally acceptable to show a bit of compassion, even if it costs you a relatively small amount of money.

well he has done - he wrote off the rent for the dead student in the end... but the other three too - why should he be out of pocket by thousands?

I don't agree that taking a compromise in this instance would set a precedence because people are unlikely to start murdering their housemates to move out of a house early.

I've not said it would set a president - I'm just trying to understand why he's supposedly evil for simply collecting money he is owed

MichaelAwkward · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:43

dowie said:
well he has done - he wrote off the rent for the dead student in the end... but the other three too - why should he be out of pocket by thousands?

He would've only lost £2611.6 if he'd taken their offer of 3 months rent. Hardly an amount worth going to court for in these circumstances. Now he'll be even more out of pocket, since he hasn't got a hope in hell of winning.

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:46

MichaelAwkward said:
He would've only lost £2611.6 if he'd taken their offer of 3 months rent. Hardly an amount worth going to court for in these circumstances. Now he'll be even more out of pocket, since he hasn't got a hope in hell of winning.

you're not in a position to say whether it is worth it for him or to comment on his chances

and whether it makes sense for him from a business perspective isn't even particularly relevant to the question of whether it is morally right for him to pursue money he was owed or whether doing so is somehow evil

Caged · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:46

dowie said:
well he has done - he wrote off the rent for the dead student in the end... but the other three too - why should he be out of pocket by thousands?

Like I said, it's entirely up to him. Does he pursue a group of people for money that he's owed, spend time doing it, and attract bad press. Or does he accept that they found their friend dead in that house and that it's a horrible situation that is unlikely to affect his business again, and move on?

It's his decision to make. He's not legally wrong for doing it, but it doesn't really mean he's a nice person. If you're struggling to see how going after a bunch of traumatised young people for a few thousand pounds might make people view you as lacking in compassion then I can't really write any more here to help you with that.

MichaelAwkward · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:49

dowie said:
you're not in a position to say whether it is worth it for him or to comment on his chances

and whether it makes sense for him from a business perspective isn't even particularly relevant to the question of whether it is morally right for him to pursue money he was owed or whether doing so is somehow evil

Of course I can comment on his chances. It's already clear that he terminated the contract by deciding to start renovating the place before they'd stopped paying rent. Regardless of anything else, that alone means he'll lose.

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:51

MichaelAwkward said:
Of course I can comment on his chances. It's already clear that he terminated the contract by deciding to start renovating the place before they'd stopped paying rent. Regardless of anything else, that alone means he'll lose.

It doesn't seem to be that clear at all.

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:54

Caged said:
If you're struggling to see how going after a bunch of traumatised young people for a few thousand pounds might make people view you as lacking in compassion then I can't really write any more here to help you with that.

Should their student overdrafts and credit cards be written off or reduced too too? Maybe they want a fresh start on everything and open new student accounts but decide they only want to pay off 3/5ths of their current overdraft - would HSBC be evil for pursuing them because, well, their friend did die recently and the bank can afford to lose a few grand.

Sorry but just because someone is going through a rough patch emotionally why should that mean their debts ought to be reduced by their creditors?

MichaelAwkward · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:54

dowie said:
It doesn't seem to be that clear at all.

Why not? The article states he started building work before they'd stopped paying rent. I doubt he gave them notice of that. What if they changed their minds and wanted to resume the contract?

All of the contracts I've had for renting whilst a student cover required notice periods for renovation or building work and most have said that the contract will be terminated in the event of significant work that prevents the occupants living there. I'd be surprised if this didn't.

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:57

MichaelAwkward said:
Why not? The article states he started building work before they'd stopped paying rent. I doubt he gave them notice of that. What if they changed their minds and wanted to resume the contract?

All of the contracts I've had for renting whilst a student cover required notice periods for renovation or building work and most have said that the contract will be terminated in the event of significant work that prevents the occupants living there. I'd be surprised if this didn't.

How significant was the work? Were they given notice? Will the fact they've vacated the premises have any impact? could they have still lived there when the work was being carried out? The judge hasn't decided yet but you seem so confident in the verdict despite only having a press article to go on.

I've had building work carried out in a flat I was renting... builders came for a few days and did some work - it didn't invalidate anything or mean the landlord had taken possession, it just meant there were builders there for a few days during the day time

MichaelAwkward · 18 Oct 2015 at 15:59

dowie said:
How significant was the work? Were they given notice? Will the fact they've vacated the premises have any impact? could they have still lived there when the work was being carried out? The judge hasn't decided yet but you seem so confident in the verdict despite only having a press article to go on.

Renovation is usually pretty significant in terms of work. We don't know if they were given notice, but they hadn't officially vacated the property by the sounds of things.

Of course I'm confident in the verdict. Look at the guy, he's clearly a ******.

EDIT: Oh, I've had builders in the properties I've rented to do odd jobs, we had a new boiler fitted, etc. But that isn't what I'd call renovation. That, in my eyes, would be a new kitchen or new decoration throughout.

Caged · 18 Oct 2015 at 16:00

dowie said:
Should their student overdrafts and credit cards be written off or reduced too too? Maybe they want a fresh start on everything and open new student accounts but decide they only want to pay off 3/5ths of their current overdraft - would HSBC be evil for pursuing them because, well, their friend did die recently and the bank can afford to lose a few grand.

Sorry but just because someone is going through a rough patch emotionally why should that mean their debts ought to be reduced by their creditors?

It's not possible to die inside an overdraft or a credit card, so the emotional link is unlikely to be there. Also they can cut back on spending on things that end up on credit cards and overdrafts. Outside of a mobile phone contract a student is unlikely to have much in the way of committed spending, certainly nothing of the same sort of amount that a tenancy costs. I'm not arguing for writing off debts of people who don't want to pay, I'm saying that in this circumstance the landlord isn't legally barred from approaching the issue as though it's a bunch of human beings instead of a line on a balance sheet.

I wish my life was as clear cut and straightforward as the imaginary one that you inhabit.

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 16:05

MichaelAwkward said:
Renovation is usually pretty significant in terms of work. We don't know if they were given notice, but they hadn't officially vacated the property by the sounds of things.

Of course I'm confident in the verdict. Look at the guy, he's clearly a ******.

EDIT: Oh, I've had builders in the properties I've rented to do odd jobs, we had a new boiler fitted, etc. But that isn't what I'd call renovation. That, in my eyes, would be a new kitchen or new decoration throughout.

you're basing this all on your idea of what they meant in that article by 'renovation' when you've got no actual details of what that involved - just your own assumptions

MichaelAwkward · 18 Oct 2015 at 16:08

dowie said:
you're basing this all on your idea of what they meant in that article by 'renovation' when you've got no actual details of what that involved - just your own assumptions

Of course, and you're assuming that the students in this instance are just trying to cheat their way out of a legal obligation rather than being traumatised by the unfortunate death of their friend to the point where they don't want to live in the property where he died.

Renovation implies serious building work/redecoration in multiple parts of the property to the point that it's uninhabitable by tenants fairly clearly, to me at least. Anything less shouldn't be called renovation.

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 16:10

Caged said:
It's not possible to die inside an overdraft or a credit card, so the emotional link is unlikely to be there. Also they can cut back on spending on things that end up on credit cards and overdrafts. Outside of a mobile phone contract a student is unlikely to have much in the way of committed spending, certainly nothing of the same sort of amount that a tenancy costs. I'm not arguing for writing off debts of people who don't want to pay, I'm saying that in this circumstance the landlord isn't legally barred from approaching the issue as though it's a bunch of human beings instead of a line on a balance sheet.

I wish my life was as clear cut and straightforward as the imaginary one that you inhabit.

what is so complicated about it - they owed money and while it is sad their friend died the idea that someone should just write off a part of it is a bit silly

it isn't all that unusual a situation for an adult in rented accommodation to have a relative die, it is fairly standard for pensioners up and down the country for example - sometimes they might want to move on afterwards, perhaps downsizing if it was a partner that died... it doesn't usually result in people trying to knock off a few months from their contract or expecting that because they've suffered a personal loss their landlord can take a hit of a few grand

sure it is rarer for students to have a friend die but that loss isn't necessarily any more or less traumatizing than any number of old folks who've lost a husband or wife and they don't generally try to short change the landlord if they want to move to another property after the event

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 16:13

MichaelAwkward said:
Of course, and you're assuming that the students in this instance are just trying to cheat their way out of a legal obligation rather than being traumatised by the unfortunate death of their friend to the point where they don't want to live in the property where he died.

nope I've not made that assumption - whether they've made up the extent of their 'trauma' or not is completely irrelevant

Renovation implies serious building work/redecoration in multiple parts of the property to the point that it's uninhabitable by tenants fairly clearly, to me at least. Anything less shouldn't be called renovation.

whether it should or not isn't relevant - the fact is you don't know and you're making an assumption

Caged · 18 Oct 2015 at 16:21

dowie said:
what is so complicated about it - they owed money and while it is sad their friend died the idea that someone should just write off a part of it is a bit silly

it isn't all that unusual a situation for an adult in rented accommodation to have a relative die, it is fairly standard for pensioners up and down the country for example - sometimes they might want to move on afterwards, perhaps downsizing if it was a partner that died... it doesn't usually result in people trying to knock off a few months from their contract or expecting that because they've suffered a personal loss their landlord can take a hit of a few grand

sure it is rarer for students to have a friend die but that loss isn't necessarily any more or less traumatizing than any number of old folks who've lost a husband or wife and they don't generally try to short change the landlord if they want to move to another property after the event

All I'm saying is that in this particular circumstance it probably wouldn't have caused the guy too much pain to accept the compromise and let everybody move on. But instead he's decided legal action is the way to go, and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to draw a certain conclusion about that person's character. Time will tell whether that is the right course of action.

Do companies have to go beyond their legal obligations? No, but some do to maintain a certain reputation. Do you jump in when employers grant people people compassionate leave at full pay and inform them that legally they can do less?

dowie · 18 Oct 2015 at 16:27

Caged said:
All I'm saying is that in this particular circumstance it probably wouldn't have caused the guy too much pain to accept the compromise and let everybody move on. But instead he's decided legal action is the way to go, and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to draw a certain conclusion about that person's character. Time will tell whether that is the right course of action.

Do companies have to go beyond their legal obligations? No, but some do to maintain a certain reputation. Do you jump in when employers grant people people compassionate leave at full pay and inform them that legally they can do less?

Companies tend to have a policy on that - check your contract/HR policies. It is quite common to have paid leave as policy and/or to have further leave as per managers discretion - though if you decided to take a couple of extra months off without approval then they might ask some questions. Though this is going rather off topic and not particularly relevant - I'd not be criticising the Landlord if he had written off some rent either. I'm criticising the idea that he is evil for not doing that.

Caged · 18 Oct 2015 at 16:30

I guess some people don't see being legally correct as the same thing as being a good person? I think evil's a bit harsh, but I can sympathise with the sentiment.

It would be interesting to see what the DM comments would have said if the guy had died from a heart condition or similar. The fact it was a drug overdose has gotten the readership all exited and ready to pen their thoughts on responsibility.