Germaine Greer on Transexuality

wait a second aren't you the furry?

where does wanting to fornicate with human/animal hybrids place you on this scale of birth to choice to drug caused mental disorders you're constructing?

Well that's the thing, isn't it. We all have kinks, perversions. Some minor, some major.

Who can state with complete authority that they chose to be this way, that they aren't suffering from any kind of mental disorder, that their life experience has no hand in it, or that their brain chemistry, etc, did not play a role?

All these elements are linked together to form us.

You cannot say "my choices define me", or "my life experience shaped me", or "my DNA determined me"... because they ALL do. It is a hugely complex interplay. We are the result of billions of inter-operating variables.

None of that makes sex through gender deception OK. None of that makes a delusion into reality.

Listen, I'm not saying this isn't complex.
 
who said anything about a deciding factor, it was just curiosity. Barren woman still have the parts necessary for child birth though, they just can't have children for other reasons. was wondering if mtf were given those and whether ftm still have em

there have been womb transplants recently though so its a future possibility.


recently a mother gave her womb to her daughter who had had a hysterectomy and the woman then had a child.

so the grandmothers womb gave birth to her own granddaughter but it was within her daughter at the time.
 
Well that's the thing, isn't it. We all have kinks, perversions. Some minor, some major.

Who can state with complete authority that they chose to be this way, that they aren't suffering from any kind of mental disorder, that their life experience has no hand in it, or that their brain chemistry, etc, did not play a role?

All these elements are linked together to form us.

You cannot say "my choices define me", or "my life experience shaped me", or "my DNA determined me"... because they ALL do. It is a hugely complex interplay. We are the result of billions of inter-operating variables.

None of that makes sex through gender deception OK. None of that makes a delusion into reality.

Listen, I'm not saying this isn't complex.

but not many want to do that though.

but heres a fun situation for you foxeye (and a common one) you're trans you're on a night out you keep getting hit on by a guy quite publicly ie all his friends have seen him hitting on you.

now you're not interested but hes not having it, if you tell him you're actually trans or have a **** etc its pretty damn likely to save face you're going to get your head staved in.


what do you do?
 
They can be extremely convincing. That's the whole point on these sort of topics and arguments.

That wasn't the actual point of this thread though. However, inevitably that is the course that this thread has taken; an argument between individuals opinions on whether they think a transsexual man/woman is indeed a man/woman ad nauseum. I'd almost rather another religion thread instead!
 
wait a second aren't you the furry?


where does wanting to fornicate with human/animal hybrids place you on this scale of birth to choice to drug caused mental disorders you're constructing?

Indeed, by his logic everyone must list all their psychological disorders whenever they first meet another person. I don't want to run the risk of bedding some girl with OCD for crying out loud!! :p
 
Indeed, by his logic everyone must list all their psychological disorders whenever they first meet another person. I don't want to run the risk of bedding some girl with OCD for crying out loud!! :p

fortunately my mentalness is quite clearly on display lol.
 
what do you do?

Are you saying that the guy is not accepting a "no" answer, and will eventually attempt rape? What do women do? Upgrade the "no" to "**** off", leave, alert a bouncer, surround yourself with your friends, make a scene...? I have no idea what you're driving at here.

I'm not seeing how a MTF person in that scenario is invariably going to get beaten up, if that's what you're driving at.
 
Live and let live. In my personal experience I've not meet a nice gay or lesbian person. They have all been liars and self centred... Every one of them. But that doesn't mean I'll waste my time not liking them.
The world is full of people who want to be different, and as long as they don't cause trouble. The only issue I have is allowing tax payers money to be spent on cosmetic surgery to have a man bits cut off because he thinks that will make him a woman. Same goes with boob jobs.
 
To me a ftm can never be a male and a mtf never a female. They simply exist in some separate group labelled transvestite.

Some of these statements are borderline ridiculous. Saying that it wouldn't be wrong to hide the fact from a partner you used to be a man? And even legally changing this to protect them more?

What about the right to not believe they are a true woman and to make decisions based on that.
 
what do you do?

In that situation the TV/TS does not have to do anything other than tell the guy to do one.

In a situation where a TV/TS was in a conversation with a guy and they both seemed to like each-other, it would be common decency that the TV/TS reveal their birth gender to give the guy chance to make an objective decision on weather to continue with things.

If the guy were me I would simply say "you're not my type" either the conversation would end or I'd be happy to just talk as friends. If however I was the guy and was not either told or did not realise to be able to politely exit proceedings before the point at which some physical interaction had taken place, I would be angry as hell.
 
It's a deception in the eyes of 'many', (probably majority even), sadly that's the truth right now, so you are saying that the law defines someones gender now? that being the case once it's changed will that also change your stance?

I doubt it.

I want to ask you a couple of questions, do you believe a gay individual is born gay, is their choice, or just psychological condition?

Also do you define a gender based purely on genitalia?

I think you probably mean sex rather than gender. The distinction is very important for this argument. I also think bringing heterosexuality / homosexuality into this is a very bad idea for a number of reasons. Whilst superficially they are related in that both have to do with sex and both are subjects of prejudice that's really about as far as it goes. A gay guy doesn't want to be a woman. Nor would anyone consider them to be a woman. It's about behaviour, not physical attributes. I can only see confusion and flawed arguments arising from starting to talk about gay men in the context of MtF transsexuals.
 
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The consent would have to be based around the fact that you were a billionaire.

For example if she said "yes, only if you're really a billionaire" then it would be.

The specifics are essentially the consent has to be contingent on the lie/deception.

Billionaire was probably a poor example as it both carries an inherent social negative toward the woman (she is viewed as a victim of her own greed which affects people's view of the outcome) and it's rather blurry anyway. If people need parallels to illustrate the principle for some reason, then pick less prejudicial ones. E.g. "I'm not married" or "I don't have any STDs" or "It's okay, I'm on the pill".

But when people start using analogies to argue it's usually a rhetorical trick to re-cast something in a way more favourable to their argument. E.g. FoxEye has indicated for whatever reason, that they'd have issues with sleeping with someone who was born / was genetically a man. I'm of the opinion that if you know or could reasonably expect your partner's decision to be affected by something, then you have an ethical duty to be up front with them about it. I'm less interested in the law on this subject as what I am interested in is rights and wrongs. Whenever people start invoking the law as a basis for determining that, my eyebrows begin to rise rather quickly. Was it not the same Law that had homosexual acts be a crime for so long? I have little interest in the law except as a practical thing I have to deal with sometimes. Let's talk about what is actually right and wrong.
 
There is nothing else, at all in genetics that is one of the other.

People come in all shapes and sizes, a vast array of skin colours, hair colours, eye colours. People with allergies have them to different degrees.

But gender is binary?
 
I know plenty of people in HR. There's no "minefield" at all. It's about as much of a "minefield" as when someone takes a different name through marriage or even deed poll.

You've pulled that out of your bottom.

You're either a) lying or b) none of these people have dealt with said scenario.

I have worked for a company that had said scenario and have a partner who works in HR for a company who has had the same.

To say someone changing genders in the office is akin to someone getting married highlights your experience on the issue.

There are workshops for HR designed around the issue and how to deal with such circumstances. Last time I checked there wasn't extensive training on what to do when someone gets married...
 
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In that situation the TV/TS does not have to do anything other than tell the guy to do one.

In a situation where a TV/TS was in a conversation with a guy and they both seemed to like each-other, it would be common decency that the TV/TS reveal their birth gender to give the guy chance to make an objective decision on weather to continue with things.
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well that's the option my friend took, you can still see the scar where the chair ripped her scalp off before it fractured her skull.

a lot of guys do not take the "embarrassment" of having hit on a trans person well.
 
Are you saying that the guy is not accepting a "no" answer, and will eventually attempt rape? What do women do? Upgrade the "no" to "**** off", leave, alert a bouncer, surround yourself with your friends, make a scene...? I have no idea what you're driving at here.

I'm not seeing how a MTF person in that scenario is invariably going to get beaten up, if that's what you're driving at.

because the usual macho guy is horrified hes been hitting on a "man" gets angry and trys to regain his masculinity by beating the freak up in front of (and usually with the help of ) his friends.
 
As much as I dislike woman, and pretty much all feminists, for once I agree with some of what she is saying.

I am adamantly against sex changes, and feel that it is man playing God. I don't have a problem with gays, transvestites, and I can even tolerate Arsenal supporters, but transsexuals make my flesh creep. Once more, the few that I have met don't look anything like a woman. Take a look at Frank Maloney, he's absolutely laughable, and to be honest, he is nothing more than a bloke who has had his dick cut off.

Germaine Greer made a good point when asked if she may have upset some people with her comments. She said, of course, but why should I care. I totally agree with this sentiment. We now live in a vile politically correct country where you can't say what you want if it upsets someone. It's my belief that the problem lies with the oversensitive people that get upset, and the emphasis shouldn't be put on the people who have done nothing more than voiced an opinion.
 
I think you probably mean sex rather than gender. The distinction is very important for this argument. I also think bringing heterosexuality / homosexuality into this is a very bad idea for a number of reasons. Whilst superficially they are related in that both have to do with sex and both are subjects of prejudice that's really about as far as it goes. A gay guy doesn't want to be a woman. Nor would anyone consider them to be a woman. It's about behaviour, not physical attributes. I can only see confusion and flawed arguments arising from starting to talk about gay men in the context of MtF transsexuals.

My point was to try to understand the mentality of people that refuse to believe that a MTF can be a real female, I wondered what their attitudes/opinions were towards gay people and what 'made' them gay, homosexuals are now more widely excepted in society these days and now many believe they are simply born gay, which is what I believe also, that being the case is it really that much of a stretch to also believe that a human being could be born with female brain? Or is that one thing nature can't make a mistake on?

To add to this,

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704

In the 1990s, scientists began to compare these sexually dimorphic regions in the brains of transsexuals and the rest of humanity. Early work in this area required the examination of brains postmortem; recent studies use images of the living brain.

The results show that when individuals of Sex A—despite having the chromosomes, gonads and sex hormones of that sex—insist that they're really Sex B, the gender-affected parts of the brain typically more closely resemble what's usually seen with Sex B.

Consider an obscure brain region called the forceps minor (part of the corpus callosum, a mass of fibers that connect the brain's two hemispheres). On average, among nontranssexuals, the forceps minor of males contains parallel nerve fibers of higher density than in females. But the density in female-to-male transsexuals is equivalent to that in typical males.

As another example, the hypothalamus, a hormone-producing part of the brain, is activated in nontranssexual men by the scent of estrogen, but in women—and male-to-female transsexuals—by the scent of androgens, male-associated hormones.

Two arguments against these findings come to mind. First, sex-reassignment surgery involves treatment with cross-sex hormones that alter the brain. This is true, but the differences in the brains of transsexuals are there before hormone treatments start. Secondly, maybe these findings aren't about the sex one identifies with but are instead about the sex one is attracted to. But no, the findings are the same in transsexual individuals who are attracted to the same or to the opposite sex.

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This is interesting,

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/02/us/study-links-brain-to-transsexuality.html

It seems to suggest the possibility that transsexual brains could have physical elements within them that not only differ from male brains but also female, suggesting that parts of the transsexual brain could have a more feminine attributes/features than even the average female, which sounds odd but could explain why many transsexuals feel so strongly that they are trapped in the wrong body.
 
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There is nothing else, at all in genetics that is one of the other.

People come in all shapes and sizes, a vast array of skin colours, hair colours, eye colours. People with allergies have them to different degrees.

But gender is binary?

It's not completely binary, you get people who are inter-sex. Though even there you could define some specific criteria if you wished (have Y-chromosome or not), though whether that would be a useful dividing line or not is another debate. So certainly there are grey areas.

However that does not mean there cannot be debate about the non-grey areas. If someone is male right down to having a male brain, we can debate whether surgically removing the penis, adding breasts and other more cosmetic changes now makes them a woman. Those who start in an indeterminate state and eventually resolve it in one direction or the other (or have it resolved for them by parents when they are a baby) can be discussed separately to those who more clearly have a sex to begin with.

If your contention is that it is not possible to define sex and therefore no-one can tell someone they are not a particular sex then I would both challenge your premise and also observe that if accepted leads inextricably to a conclusion that transsexuality results from either some body-disassociation disorder akin to anorexia or a desire to get some socially defined role (as perceived) and neither is a good argument for surgical alteration, imo. So I'm very wary of such an argument and others should be also.
 
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