Germaine Greer on Transexuality

balky12 said:
No I mentioned it from a point that the 1 in 3 girls have been sexually assaulted just can't be true (we talking UK?). Let alone bringing in the 'only 15% get reported'. That would mean almost all girls (if not all) have been sexually assaulted.

Common sense should tell you otherwise.
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You'd genuinely be surprised how common it is. Of course there are different types of sexual violence, but it is something a huge number of people have to deal with. These are the official government figures too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_Kingdom
 
PermaBanned said:
You'd genuinely be surprised how common it is. Of course there are different types of sexual violence, but it is something a huge number of people have to deal with. These are the official government figures too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_Kingdom
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So between my mum, sister and partner, statistically 1 of them would have been a victim. Expand that to close friends (11 couples) that's another 3 girls. (And two guys).

Numbers just seem excessive. Would be interesting to see how they arrive at these figures.
 
balky12 said:
So between my mum, sister and partner, statistically 1 of them would have been a victim. Expand that to close friends (11 couples) that's another 3 girls. (And two guys).

Numbers just seem excessive. Would be interesting to see how they arrive at these figures.
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Yes. You almost certainly know people who've been victims of it. Many of the studies are out there if you want to read them.
 
balky12 said:
So between my mum, sister and partner, statistically 1 of them would have been a victim. Expand that to close friends (11 couples) that's another 3 girls. (And two guys).

Numbers just seem excessive. Would be interesting to see how they arrive at these figures.
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Do you think women would confide in you?
 
Going back to the OP and other things she has said I see her point. Male to Female transgendered people do not have the lived experience of being a woman and having society treat them as such, for the whole of their lives, as a natural born woman. Given this I can understand why she feels they don't have a place in her brand of feminism.
 
Well so far the assertion seems to be, that the only important consideration is how the trans person identifies themselves. And that how other people identify them must not be given any weight.

Now quite apart from changing rooms, another problem area has proven to be sporting competition. Again, if the only important thing is how the self-identify, then no sport can (or should) prevent a trans person competing as their chosen gender. And post-op or pre-op doesn't matter. A MTF who is not undergoing hormone treatments should still be a woman for the sake of competition, because they identify this way before surgery.

From what I'm seeing, there have been various decisions made on this, sometimes allowing and sometimes disallowing (or first ruling one way then the other). There have already been cases where female athletes have refused to compete against trans people (tennis). And how many people here would welcome a pre-op man boxing a woman (extreme example).

It does seem that common sense has mandated that other people's categorisation of the trans person necessarily have some weight.

For the sake of fairness, some studies have concluded there is insufficient evidence to prove a trans person would have an advantage. But the methodology has been brought into question, with many suggesting that there can be no conclusive test for gender, and no conclusive proof that a MTF may have an advantage.

However there have been male tennis players who, after changing gender, have been ranked much higher as a woman than as a man. Is it unreasonable for any woman to object to competing against a trans person? Can it be argued that it doesn't affect them in any way?

e: and what about a trans person (woman), who /likes/ their male body, and chooses to keep their male physiology? Can they still compete as a woman? "It's not my fault I was born with a male body; I'm just using it to my advantage." So could a trans woman with no intention of taking female hormones compete against biological women? Again, I'm just challenging the stance that the /only/ important consideration is how the trans person self-identifies.
 
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Does anyone ever shake their head filling out a dentists form or such when they see the list for gender?

Remember when it was just 3 entries? There must be 7 now.
 
Off the top of my head i'd say a majority of those diagnosed with gender dysphoria end up on hormone replacement therapy, but a considerable number don't go through with complete sex reassignment surgery due to the possibility of complications and the possibility for sensation to be lost.

This is a good round up of sports since you're interested:

http://www.transathlete.com/#!policies-by-organization/c1vyj

The IOC's position is an odd one since legal recognition of gender isn't possible in a lot of countries.

I don't see what your point is though, this isn't some hypothetical curiosity that we should aim to prevent people from making a reality, this IS a reality and these considerations have already been in place for years.
 
PermaBanned said:
Off the top of my head i'd say a majority of those diagnosed with gender dysphoria end up on hormone replacement therapy, but a considerable number don't go through with complete sex reassignment surgery due to the possibility of complications and the possibility for sensation to be lost.

This is a good round up of sports since you're interested:

http://www.transathlete.com/#!policies-by-organization/c1vyj

The IOC's position is an odd one since legal recognition of gender isn't possible in a lot of countries.

I don't see what your point is though, this isn't some hypothetical curiosity that we should aim to prevent people from making a reality, this IS a reality and these considerations have already been in place for years.
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Hmm, thanks for that link. It does seem that many US sports governing bodies only require the trans person to identify as their chosen gender. Surgery not required.

Crazy world. I can't help but sympathise with those biological women who don't fancy competing against a biologically male trans woman.

Interesting how little consent there is among non-US bodies. The SFA requiring surgery before puberty being a good example.
 
RDM said:
Having just recently returned from holiday in the Netherlands where the changing facilities were unisex it was actually really nice. It meant that we could get changed as a family.
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Which is one of those arguments that it doesn't matter and that people should just be okay with who they are getting changed amongst. Which works equally well in the other direction to say that a transsexual should be okay with getting changed in the environment of their real sex (for want of a better term). Clearly the British are not the same as the Dutch as clearly we do desire to have separate groups for many things such as counselling, changing rooms, sports leagues, and other things. One can argue that one thinks there shouldn't be differentiation, but not that people don't care about it.

RDM said:
How much conflict will there really be? Wouldn't the majority of Trans women want to hide the fact that they have changed their sexuality and, as far as most of the women in the changing room etc, will present just like a woman?
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Well in a large number of cases people will know each other. Which means they likely know that someone is transsexual. It's not a blind test conducted under controlled conditions. And there is also the scenario where people find out afterwards. Someone is not necessarily going to be okay with something just because they found out about it after it happened.
 
She does make some good points, when all said and done we now have many genders, some entirely natural, some modified. The point is that even the one's that seem to mirror the natural one's have their limitations and for all intents can be described as artificially created genders.
 
Hitman_Leon said:
There can be without a doubt physical advantages to being a trans-woman in many sports.
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I do find it amazing that the US sports organisations do not even require hormone treatment (from the link earlier). Your body can be fully within normal male parameters, yet compete as a woman.

Whilst I'm not going to suggest that will be the end of women's sport, you can't be dismissive of a (born) woman not wanting to compete in that environment.
 
h4rm0ny said:
Which is one of those arguments that it doesn't matter and that people should just be okay with who they are getting changed amongst. Which works equally well in the other direction to say that a transsexual should be okay with getting changed in the environment of their real sex (for want of a better term). Clearly the British are not the same as the Dutch as clearly we do desire to have separate groups for many things such as counselling, changing rooms, sports leagues, and other things. One can argue that one thinks there shouldn't be differentiation, but not that people don't care about it.



Well in a large number of cases people will know each other. Which means they likely know that someone is transsexual. It's not a blind test conducted under controlled conditions. And there is also the scenario where people find out afterwards. Someone is not necessarily going to be okay with something just because they found out about it after it happened.
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I would think that a transsexual getting changed in a male changing room would also cause discomfort. So we have a situation where whatever happens discomfort may be caused.

Still not entirely sure why people are uncomfortable with it though, it doesn't seem to have been explained all that well.
 
FoxEye said:
I do find it amazing that the US sports organisations do not even require hormone treatment (from the link earlier). Your body can be fully within normal male parameters, yet compete as a woman.

Whilst I'm not going to suggest that will be the end of women's sport, you can't be dismissive of a (born) woman not wanting to compete in that environment.
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It doesn't really seem to be impacting many sports though so I would guess it isn't a major problem.
 
I'm all for people doing whatever they want to do.

But I'm also all for people being allowed to disagree with it.

This whole 'being offended' or 'being insulted'. It doesn't matter. You're offended because I said "XYZ", so what? It doesn't entitle you to anything, how about I say that I'm offended that you're offended by what I said. It means nothing.

People have just as much of a right to change their gender as people do to disagree with it.
 
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