Germaine Greer on Transexuality

lafemmefatale said:
Should I have to disclose that my hair actually isn't Passion Red right now, and I chemically altered it from my "natural" brown colour, for fear of being labelled a deceitful trickster and being hauled through court for obtaining sex by deception?

No, I thought not.
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Do you know what a strawman fallacy is?

Yeah you do!
 
lafemmefatale said:
If your decision as to whether or not you want to sleep with someone is based purely upon a single word that is written on their birth certificate, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate the way you look at the world.
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It's a bit more than just their birth certificate though, isn't it? Cutting their penis off and changing their name does not alter their fundamental biology.

Let's look at this from another angle: If I met a woman and she knew she could never have children and hid that fact from me, would you not agree that this a gross violation of trust? Or the fact she had terminal cancer and would be dead in six months? Or that she had murdered someone and spent ten years in prison?

If you agree that all of these things would be immoral, surely you can appreciate why it would grossly unjust to hide the fact you are in fact a man with the Y chromosome to prove it!

Should I have to disclose that my hair actually isn't Passion Red right now, and I chemically altered it from my "natural" brown colour, for fear of being labelled a deceitful trickster and being hauled through court for obtaining sex by deception?

No, I thought not.
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Do you honestly think that is a reasonable comparison, do you really think the colour of your hair is comparable to someone's actual sex?
 
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spoffle said:
What impasse? I think you're just making things up now, because what intolerance have I shown of your opinions? I have disagreed with you, but you're the one trying to insult people.
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Calling a trans guy a woman is insulting too, to the person it's aimed at. You believe it's fact that they're a woman, I believe it's fact they're a man. No amount of debate or arguing or mud-slinging on either side is going to change our beliefs, is it?
 
lafemmefatale said:
Should I have to disclose that my hair actually isn't Passion Red right now, and I chemically altered it from my "natural" brown colour, for fear of being labelled a deceitful trickster and being hauled through court for obtaining sex by deception?

No, I thought not.
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I'm afraid that a person's gender is one of, if not the most fundamental criteria for choosing a sexual partner. Unless you're bisexual, which most of us aren't.

Hair colour, political preference, musical tastes... none of these are in the same ball park.

Knowing the sex/gender of your partner is absolutely fundamental to most people's choice (that word again) of sexual partner. There is no escaping this.

Should a man (non trans) be entitled to deceive another man into an act of oral sex? What do you think about this? Same thing or totally different?
 
lafemmefatale said:
Calling a trans guy a woman is insulting too, to the person it's aimed at. You believe it's fact that they're a woman, I believe it's fact they're a man. No amount of debate or arguing or mud-slinging on either side is going to change our beliefs, is it?
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We're not talking about any individual in particular, so no it's not insulting.

I'm not slinging any mud. You're complaining about bigotry and essentially saying that's it's bigotry to believe that a trans woman/man is what they want to be.

I'm not intolerant of your opinion on that, you're the one being intolerant on other people's opinions on that.

You've presented an actual issue where you've stated that the rights of a transperson come before the rights of a person they might desire. That is broken logic, and it's not a matter of opinion as that is objectively wrong.

Do you have difficulty in responding to direct questions?
 
spoffle said:
You've presented an actual issue where you've stated that the rights of a transperson come before the rights of a person they might desire.
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You, and others, are framing the discussion as a trans person being a deviant sexual predator who is out to trick people into having gay sex with them.

On your question of rights, do you believe that the rights of a non-trans person come before the rights of the trans person?
 
lafemmefatale said:
You, and others, are framing the discussion as a trans person being a deviant sexual predator who is out to trick people into having gay sex with them.
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Am I? Where?

On your question of rights, do you believe that the rights of a non-trans person come before the rights of the trans person?
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It depends on the situation. In the one outlined, yes. Because the non-trans person has the right to know. The trans person doesn't have the right to anyone they want just because they want them, the same as anyone else.

It revolves around deception, and the fact that some people don't accept that trans people are the sex they want to be.
 
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spoffle said:
Am I? Where?



It depends on the situation. In the one outlined, yes. Because the non-trans person has the right to know. The trans person doesn't have the right to anyone they want just because they want them, the same as anyone else.

It revolves around deception, and the fact that some people don't accept that trans people are the sex they want to be.
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So just to clarify, you believe that the rights of a non-trans person trumps the rights of a trans person, given circumstances that you pick and choose? Yes or no answer will suffice here.
 
lafemmefatale said:
You, and others, are framing the discussion as a trans person being a deviant sexual predator who is out to trick people into having gay sex with them.

On your question of rights, do you believe that the rights of a non-trans person come before the rights of the trans person?
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That's simple question with a very simple answer.

Sex should only happen when /both/ parties make an informed choice to engage in it.

If /either/ party is deceived, or is somehow denied the right to an informed choice, that is utterly wrong. So in theory a trans person could be deceived into sex the same as anyone else. And that would also be wrong.

Nobody has a "right to deceive".
 
It's pointless trying to debate with me, as I really don't care what someone's birth certificate says or what they have in their pants. I find people attractive, not their assigned characteristics.
 
lafemmefatale said:
You, and others, are framing the discussion as a trans person being a deviant sexual predator who is out to trick people into having gay sex with them.

On your question of rights, do you believe that the rights of a non-trans person come before the rights of the trans person?
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Nothing he's said has remotely hinted at that. The trans person in the equation telling the truth is not the same as making it okay for the non trans person to lie. What you have now said several times is based on the trans person opinion that it's okay for them to mislead a sexual partner. No one has suggested the opposite. every time someone asks you to clarify and 90% of direct questions you evade rather than answer, or attempt to come up with a parallel situation rather than just answer.

The only person who is evasive and showing signs that they think something might be wrong is you otherwise you'd stop seeking to defend or feel the need to defend it and just state your point.

A situation someone else said, if a gay man who looks feminine and dresses as a woman feels the same as you do about trans females, is it okay for that person to hide that they are a man to allow someone else to discover the situation after some level of contact has started, if not why not?


As for the other points, other people have opinions which is fine, you have opinions which is also fine, but you've continually come back into this thread to call everyone bigots for having those opinions, others haven't done the same to you. The impasse is fine, you having a go at everyone broadly for having a different opinion to you is the issue everyone is having.
 
lafemmefatale said:
So just to clarify, you believe that the rights of a non-trans person trumps the rights of a trans person, given circumstances that you pick and choose? Yes or no answer will suffice here.
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Of course it does, that's how legal rights work. A trans person doesn't have the right to anyone they choose, which is what you're implying.

If a trans person wants person x, but person x doesn't want a trans person then it's wrong for the trans person to deceive them by not being up front about it.

At this point in time, a lot of people don't believe a man can become a woman and woman can become a man, so people have the legal right to know this when in an intimate relationship situation.
 
lafemmefatale said:
It's pointless trying to debate with me, as I really don't care what someone's birth certificate says or what they have in their pants. I find people attractive, not their assigned characteristics.
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That is you, not everyone else.

Empathy

noun
1.
the psychological identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
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That is what you're struggling with. Your attitude and responses are that people are bigots and prejudiced if their world view doesn't align with your world view.
 
lafemmefatale said:
If your decision as to whether or not you want to sleep with someone is based purely upon a single word that is written on their birth certificate
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Simply as a point of note is it correct to state this is the only difference between a born woman and an MTF transexual? Are they otherwise physically identical?
 
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