Germaine Greer on Transexuality

[Hitman_Leon]

^He wants to know when you will have enough spare cash to loan him some for transgender surgery

Or he's probably trolling.

 

[spoffle]

Then that is your problem, and the other people who think that way.

These people are very much in the extreme minority, it very much is their problem. It isn't remotely reasonable for them to expect that everyone does what they want them to do because of their feelings.

 

[PermaBanned]

It isn't incorrect, unfair, or offensive, it just is matter of fact. You can't impose that sort of thing then act like the problem exists with the people who say that they don't believe that to be the case.

You're essentially saying we need to accept that everyone is exactly what they feel they are, or we're being mean and offensive. Yeah, no.

I mean, it's hardly unreasonable to ask people to respect a medically recognised condition that has no real impact on anyone else's life or wellbeing.

 

[spoffle]

I mean, it's hardly unreasonable to ask people to respect a medically recognised condition that has no real impact on anyone else's life or wellbeing.

Where did I say something to the contrary?

 

[Schlong&Stable]

I mean, it's hardly unreasonable to ask people to respect a medically recognised condition that has no real impact on anyone else's life or wellbeing.

It has an impact on our lives if we're expected to pretend they are not their biological sex. Why should we all have to pretend? Why should our daughters have to share the changing rooms with a mentally unstable man? There is no rational argument for that.

If I am so deluded as to believe I am a robot, should people treat me as if I am one?

I would never go out of my way to offend or insult a transsexual, but I won't pretend they are a woman and I will advocate against anyone arguing otherwise.

 

[dowie]

I mean, it's hardly unreasonable to ask people to respect a medically recognised condition that has no real impact on anyone else's life or wellbeing.

I don't think anyone is arguing that you shouldn't treat people with respect just that there are some situations where there are opposing requirements.

It is hardly unreasonable for the requirements of others to have to also be weighed up.

 

[Hitman_Leon]

I mean, it's hardly unreasonable to ask people to respect a medically recognised condition that has no real impact on anyone else's life or wellbeing.

Not quite so simple, men go out dressed as women for all kinds of reasons, just a night out with mates, for a gag/charity and a myriad of other combinations. How are people supposed to differentiate between men dressed as women for some kind of occasion or work and those who are TV/TS.

How would you suggest a distinction is drawn between the two?

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Not quite so simple, men go out dressed as women for all kinds of reasons, just a night out with mates, for a gag/charity and a myriad of other combinations. How are people supposed to differentiate between men dressed as women for some kind of occasion or work and those who are TV/TS.

How would you suggest a distinction is drawn between the two?

I suggest a range of hats to clearly indicate the contents of one's underwear, sexual preferences and availability.

 

[PermaBanned]

It has an impact on our lives if we're expected to pretend they are not their biological sex. Why should we all have to pretend? Why should our daughters have to share the changing rooms with a mentally unstable man? There is no rational argument for that.

If I am so deluded as to believe I am a robot, should people treat me as if I am one?

I would never go out of my way to offend or insult a transsexual, but I won't pretend they are a woman and I will advocate against anyone arguing otherwise.

I don't think ignoring the decades of research and informed decisions from doctors, sociologists and other medical professionals based on your complete misunderstanding of the situation puts you in any sort of standing to go spouting what is an isn't a "rational argument".

 

[PermaBanned]

Not quite so simple, men go out dressed as women for all kinds of reasons, just a night out with mates, for a gag/charity and a myriad of other combinations. How are people supposed to differentiate between men dressed as women for some kind of occasion or work and those who are TV/TS.

How would you suggest a distinction is drawn between the two?

How about, now bear with me here, but how about... if you're a man you use the men's room, and if you're a woman you use the women's room?

Intersex on the other hand...

 

[dowie]

I don't think ignoring the decades of research and informed decisions from doctors, sociologists and other medical professionals based on your complete misunderstanding of the situation puts you in any sort of standing to go spouting what is an isn't a "rational argument".

I'm not sure you can use that appeal to authority - gender dysphoria is still classified as a mental disorder by some(it still is in the US for example), it is a controversial issue.

so the other poster's line:

Why should our daughters have to share the changing rooms with a mentally unstable man?

doesn't necessarily conflict with the current medical view

 

[spoffle]

I don't think ignoring the decades of research and informed decisions from doctors, sociologists and other medical professionals based on your complete misunderstanding of the situation puts you in any sort of standing to go spouting what is an isn't a "rational argument".

I don't think you know what rational means.

You don't seem to actually understand the topic much. Compare it to someone who has a body dysmorphia condition.

You can acknowledge that it's something they're suffering from without accepting or believing that they are what they feel they are.

It isn't disrespectful to not believe a man can become a woman or a woman can become a man. It's simply matter of fact that they believe that.

How you treat someone determines respect, not whether you believe our accept they are what they claim to be.

 

[spoffle]

How about, now bear with me here, but how about... if you're a man you use the men's room, and if you're a woman you use the women's room?

Intersex on the other hand...

Is it some sort of moral duty for everyone to accept person x who is a man, but tells people they're a woman is definitely a woman?

Are you even following the thread?

 

[PermaBanned]

I'm not sure you can use that appeal to authority - gender dysphoria is still classified as a mental disorder.

the other poster's line:

doesn't necessarily conflict with the current medical view

There's a difference between mental conditions, which doubtless all of us have to some degree, and being mentally unstable. Gender dysphoria is a condition and the best treatment of it is often therapy, HRT and sex reassignment surgery. Borderline personality disorder is completely unrelated.

I don't think you know what rational means.

You don't seem to actually understand the topic much. Compare it to someone who has a body dysmorphia condition.

You can acknowledge that it's something they're suffering from without accepting or believing that they are what they feel they are.

It isn't disrespectful to not believe a man can become a woman or a woman can become a man. It's simply matter of fact that they believe that.

How you treat someone determines respect, not whether you believe our accept they are what they claim to be.

I'm not particularly convinced by your argument. Facts can be offensive or disrespectful. There's really no reason to believe that unless you lack a proper understanding of both biological sex and the cultural concept of gender.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

I don't think ignoring the decades of research and informed decisions from doctors, sociologists and other medical professionals based on your complete misunderstanding of the situation puts you in any sort of standing to go spouting what is an isn't a "rational argument".

The decades of research does not contradict me though, does it? Medical professionals are not saying that someone born male can become female. The purpose of reassignment is to match their appearance to their self identified sex.

 

[Cuchulain]

Anyone remember this epic thread? http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17830012&highlight=keith

 

[spoffle]

Plus, realistically it isn't even really about toilets, it's about self validation mentally. If they're using the women's toilets, they're a woman.

The suggestion that they use the disabled toilets was shot down earlier on in the thread as being offensive and it seems for that very reason.

It isn't about relieving themselves of waste products, it's about validation. How else can it be considered offensive otherwise?

Hell, I try to use only disabled toilets because they're significantly more pleasant to use. You can guarantee that they'll be cleaner because they'll be inspected more often due the physically disadvantaged are at significantly higher risk of harm from things like a wet floor.

The notion that it implies they're disabled is ludicrous. I'm not disabled, I don't feel disabled when I use them. It's convenient and logically sound, especially for the less convincing trans people.

That aside, I haven't actually got any issues with them using whether toilet they want. I was at Malaga airport recently where their toilets are mixed. It was strange just because it was different and I wasn't expecting it but it wasn't an issue.

 

[dowie]

There's a difference between mental conditions, which doubtless all of us have to some degree, and being mentally unstable. Gender dysphoria is a condition and the best treatment of it is often therapy, HRT and sex reassignment surgery. Borderline personality disorder is completely unrelated.

No one said anything about borderline personality disorder

however gender dysphoria is classed as a personality disorder

see F64 below on the WHO website:

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F60-F69

 

[spoffle]

There's a difference between mental conditions, which doubtless all of us have to some degree, and being mentally unstable. Gender dysphoria is a condition and the best treatment of it is often therapy, HRT and sex reassignment surgery. Borderline personality disorder is completely unrelated.



I'm not particularly convinced by your argument. Facts can be offensive or disrespectful. There's really no reason to believe that unless you lack a proper understanding of both biological sex and the cultural concept of gender.

I don't particularly care. The surgery is called a sex change, sex being biological.

A fact isn't disrespectful or offensive unless it's put across that way.

If dark skinned person bleaches their skin, straightens their hair and has surgery to give them Caucasian features, I'm not going to accept that they are Caucasian.

If that's what they need to live their life comfortably, with psychological help being of no use, then that's what they need. But again I'm not going to accept that they actually are Caucasian because they aren't. It isn't offensive or disrespectful to think or feel something just because someone doesn't want you to.

Why are you talking about personality disorders?

 

[dowie]

this woman passed as black for a while in the US, even got elected as president of a regional NAACP - she got outed by her white parents as being a white person....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...il-rights-leader-in-years-long-deception.html

She still claims to be black, in some sort of trans-racial way.

Do black people have to accept her as black because it might hurt her feelings if they don't?

Rachel Dolezal, 37, has been the head of the local branch of the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People, or NAACP, in Spokane, Washington, since January.
But her parents have now told US media that Ms Dolezal is in fact white – and has spent several years deliberately misleading the public and her colleagues about her race.
[...]
Ms Dolezal is a prominent civil rights activists has made headlines several times since 2009 as the victim of hate crimes, including death threats and an alleged run-in with neo-Nazis in Idaho.
She also serves as the chair of a police oversight body called the office of police ombudsman commission and is a professor of Africana Studies at Eastern Washington University, where her research interests include “the intersection of race, gender and class in the contemporary diaspora with a specific emphasis on black women in visual culture.”
In her application for the police ombudsman commission she described herself as mixed-race white, black, and Native American, according to local media reports.

I mean whats the big deal - race is a social construct a trans black person is black amirite?