Student diversity officer in racism row could lose her job after allegedly tweeting 'kill all white

Doesn't work. Anyone hired from a minority under positive discrimination regardless of them very possibly being the best person on the planet for the job will always be considered to have been gifted the position through discrimination.

The Rooney Rule did work. It's in the process of being updated and revised but it did work.

It's a great rule. It doesn't force anyone to hire someone they don't want to hire. It simply asks them to consider people from different backgrounds. That's how positive discrimination (if you even want to call it that) can be used to accelerate towards an equal society without stopping people from hiring the best person for the job.
 
The Rooney Rule did work. It's in the process of being updated and revised but it did work.

It's a great rule. It doesn't force anyone to hire someone they don't want to hire. It simply asks them to consider people from different backgrounds. That's how positive discrimination (if you even want to call it that) can be used to accelerate towards an equal society without stopping people from hiring the best person for the job.

That might the theory, but I've not seen it used that way.
 
The Rooney Rule did work. It's in the process of being updated and revised but it did work.

It's a great rule. It doesn't force anyone to hire someone they don't want to hire. It simply asks them to consider people from different backgrounds. That's how positive discrimination (if you even want to call it that) can be used to accelerate towards an equal society without stopping people from hiring the best person for the job.

It would be great if positive worked like that but it doesn't.

Police forces are a prime example of where you will have minorities/women/homosexuals being chosen over straight white male candidates even if they perform worse. All because of outside pressure to increase the numbers of these groups within the force.

The BEST person for a role should be given the job REGARDLESS of their colour/gender/sexuality but it doesn't work like that a lot of the time.
 
We also have people in this country like Sol Campbell who state unequivocally that the FA was racist because he wasn't England captain more often. People like him that campaign for more opportunities for black men to be made manager of Football League/Premiership clubs but in actual fact although the playing staff has a much, much, much higher proportional representation against the wider population demographics, the amount of black coaches and managers is more closely tracking the stats of the general populace (see the 2001 & 2011 census).

Anyone is free to review and question the stats and the choices people make, but to cite racism; institutional or otherwise; is far more likely to be him pushing his own agenda than anything else.
 
It would be great if positive worked like that but it doesn't.

Police forces are a prime example of where you will have minorities/women/homosexuals being chosen over straight white male candidates even if they perform worse. All because of outside pressure to increase the numbers of these groups within the force.

The BEST person for a role should be given the job REGARDLESS of their colour/gender/sexuality but it doesn't work like that a lot of the time.

Teresa May think that BME people are under-represented in the Police Service, she says from her all white, predominantly male cabinet.
 
Teresa May think that BME people are under-represented in the Police Service, she says from her all white, predominantly male cabinet.

...and in terms of demographics she may be right. It's how that is handled that becomes the problem.
 
That's a great ideal but it's obviously not working. Look at the current Conservative cabinet (100% white) or the list of FTSE 100 CEOs (93% male). There's clearly a problem.

Unfortunately, people hire people like themselves. Old white middle-class men tend to hire other old white middle-class men. It's hard to break the cycle. Sometimes the only way to overcome this issue is positive discrimination like the Rooney Rule.


it isn't obvious at all

do you not realise there is going to be a lag of at least a couple of decades for CEOs - how old are the current crop of CEOs and what was the culture like when they were starting to work their way up the company + how many women were in the main professional rather than administrative roles at that time say 30 years ago - were there many female Tesco store managers in the 1980s? How about Engineers? Or people in management roles at construction firms or banks? You're not going to promote someone who's spent the past couple of decades doing admin or HR work into the CEO position of a large property developer because 'diversity'.

even with the changes we've had over the years you're still inherently likely to get fewer women simply because women tend to have children and work fewer hours after they've had them whereas senior exec positions can often involve being available at various hours and having to travel etc.. women also chose different subjects at A-Level and University compared with men

positive discrimination doesn't solve anything - it would at best just make an adjustment to the stats in a rather arbitrary way without addressing any actual issues - and the side effect is you're deliberately introducing real inefficiencies into the selection process on the presumption that a particular perceived inefficiency that might not even exist needs to be tackled

also, FYI, the conservative party has a an Asian MP in the cabinet and plenty of women - again their membership base probably has far fewer ethnic minorities compared with the population of the country
 
also, FYI, the conservative party has a an Asian MP in the cabinet and plenty of women - again their membership base probably has far fewer ethnic minorities compared with the population of the country

My bad, Sajid Javid is now a cabinet member.
 
The Rooney Rule did work. It's in the process of being updated and revised but it did work.

It's a great rule. It doesn't force anyone to hire someone they don't want to hire. It simply asks them to consider people from different backgrounds. That's how positive discrimination (if you even want to call it that) can be used to accelerate towards an equal society without stopping people from hiring the best person for the job.

It's a great lie, a great political tool. It's not so great for society because it's an excuse for promoting sexism, racism and whatever other 'isms' are fashionable at the time.

I think humanity would be better off weakening the idea that everyone is defined by whatever irrelevant biological characteristic is seem as being of paramount importance in any particular society in any particular time and that people in some "groups"(*) should be treated differently to others, not strengthening that idea.

The fact that racism, sexism, etc, is routinely described as being "positive" and "affirmative" demonstrates both the problem and the intent.





* I write "groups" because none of them are actually groups in any meaningful and relevant way. The grouping depends on the belief that people are defined by sex, "race" or whatever other biological characteristic some people think is so important. Since I reject that idea, I reject the conclusion that the groups exist at all.
 
Discrimination laws in this country don't have a bias around who is being discriminated against.

Apart from the ones that have already been rewritten to meet the original intention of such laws - to make it legal to discriminate against people with the "wrong" biological characteristics and illegal to discriminate against people with the "right" biological characteristics and to call that equality as part of the most important goal of these people - to corrupt and destroy the very idea of equality.

So, for example, it is now legal to partially disenfranchise men (and only men) by forbidding them to even stand as candidates in an election. That change came about because a couple of men were uppity enough to not know their place and thought that the laws against discrimination should protect men when obviously they were never intended to do so.
 
I disagree with you on diversity. It isn't about race or gender it's about fairness and equality.

No, it isn't. It's about irrational prejudice and discrimination on the basis of biological characteristics and excusing those things. Which is why, for example, this "diversity officer" is so sexist and racist and remains in her position. Even calling for the murder of everyone of the "wrong" sex and "race" is entirely within the boundaries of "diversity". She's more prejudiced than most people who talk about "diversity", but it's a difference of degree only.

Even at the most moderate possible end of "diversity", it's still solely about whatever characteristics the speaker thinks define people. Usually sex and/or "race" but it could be anything. Sexual orientation. Age. Sometimes even unchosen things that aren't biological, like what region of the country a person grew up in. But almost always biological because that's what attracts simple irrational prejudices.

It's another politically motivated use of a word with a different meaning to the true meaning and it's another way to reinforce the idea that everyone is defined by whatever unchosen characteristic the speaker thinks is of paramount importance because it contains and requires the assumption that everyone with that characteristic is the same. "They're all the same" is the bedrock of irrational prejudice when it's applied to all people with an unchosen characteristic. There may well be more diversity between some individuals who happen to have the same sex, "race" or whatever than between some individuals who happen to have different ones. But that idea is anathema to the "diversity" people because it treats people as people and not as "groups" defined by whatever unchosen characteristic those people deem to be of paramount importance.

There is, for example, a great deal of real diversity between me and Jeremy Corbyn or between me and David Cameron or between me and Lord Sugar or between me and the Duke of Westminster. Rather more diversity than there is between me and many of my coworkers, most of whom aren't the same sex as me.
 
How very racist of you. :D:p

Odd but true - curry is probably an English word that means "cooked" or "cooking", derived either from a French word with the same meaning (cuire) or from the older English meaning of "curry", which has long meant preparing something (still in use with grooming animals, especially horses).
 
[..]
And this guy happens to be a white man. What is it with self-hating whites, and self-hating men? We're truly living in a bizarre age.

If you have a society in which everyone is considered to be defined into groups by certain unchosen characteristics (as we do) and in which everyone is conditioned to believe that one or more of those groups is inferior and to blame for everything (as we do) then it's not surprising that the conditioning works. It's true that feminism in particular has been very successful in comparison with most other ideologies of bigotry, but it's not the only such ideology that has had enough success to make some of its victims so damaged that they are eagerly supportive of their own oppression and that of everyone else in the "wrong" group. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
 
She's employed by a student union. Does that make her a politician?

She has political power and uses politics to acquire more power. She organises political campaigns. She even holds her position as the result of an election.

I think those things make her a politician.
 
No, it isn't. It's about irrational prejudice and discrimination on the basis of biological characteristics and excusing those things. Which is why, for example, this "diversity officer" is so sexist and racist and remains in her position. Even calling for the murder of everyone of the "wrong" sex and "race" is entirely within the boundaries of "diversity". She's more prejudiced than most people who talk about "diversity", but it's a difference of degree only.

Even at the most moderate possible end of "diversity", it's still solely about whatever characteristics the speaker thinks define people. Usually sex and/or "race" but it could be anything. Sexual orientation. Age. Sometimes even unchosen things that aren't biological, like what region of the country a person grew up in. But almost always biological because that's what attracts simple irrational prejudices.

It's another politically motivated use of a word with a different meaning to the true meaning and it's another way to reinforce the idea that everyone is defined by whatever unchosen characteristic the speaker thinks is of paramount importance because it contains and requires the assumption that everyone with that characteristic is the same. "They're all the same" is the bedrock of irrational prejudice when it's applied to all people with an unchosen characteristic. There may well be more diversity between some individuals who happen to have the same sex, "race" or whatever than between some individuals who happen to have different ones. But that idea is anathema to the "diversity" people because it treats people as people and not as "groups" defined by whatever unchosen characteristic those people deem to be of paramount importance.

There is, for example, a great deal of real diversity between me and Jeremy Corbyn or between me and David Cameron or between me and Lord Sugar or between me and the Duke of Westminster. Rather more diversity than there is between me and many of my coworkers, most of whom aren't the same sex as me.

Your definition of diversity is simply wildly different to mine. Diversity to me, and the way that my company uses it, means people different in many ways. One of those ways is male:female ratio and understanding why my company lags behind others in terms of numbers but females being in the employ of the company is not more important, in any way, than any of the other areas.

You may find it irrational, you may believe it to be discriminatory, but I disagree wholeheartedly. It's not about judging people on their capabilities depending on which arbitrary groups they belong to but ensuring that no-one is denied opportunity based on the very same groups.

That's an important difference.
 
You may find it irrational, you may believe it to be discriminatory, but I disagree wholeheartedly. It's not about judging people on their capabilities depending on which arbitrary groups they belong to but ensuring that no-one is denied opportunity based on the very same groups.

That's an important difference.

Isn't it true, tho, that you can only prove you're doing your job (in the eyes of others), by making certain that there are enough women, minorities employed by your company?

Ie, by practising positive discrimination?

You could be 100% correct in claiming that your company does not discriminate, but if you employed 90% white males, people would look at your company and claim you were discriminating against women, minorities. That's just the way it works.

So you practically have to ensure that you are employing women, etc, whether or not they were the best candidate.
 
Isn't it true, tho, that you can only prove you're doing your job (in the eyes of others), by making certain that there are enough women, minorities employed by your company?

Ie, by practising positive discrimination?

You could be 100% correct in claiming that your company does not discriminate, but if you employed 90% white males, people would look at your company and claim you were discriminating against women, minorities. That's just the way it works.

So you practically have to ensure that you are employing women, etc, whether or not they were the best candidate.

Absolutely not, no.

For starters the internal work that is being done is being done to benefit the company and it's employees, not for external people to like.

The industry norm is something like 70:30 and we, as a company, do not fit with that. The challenge is to understand why, and to ensure that it isn't because any group is being discriminated against. It's not about promotion of certain groups over other groups, and it's not about offering opportunities to those groups that are lower in number - it's about ensuring that opportunities are open to all, and that the decision making isn't influenced by discrimination.

The numbers and ratios may stay the same, and that's fine as long as we understand why and that it isn't because activities are suppressing the right people with the right knowledge and skills solely because they are in a minority group.
 
Isn't it true, tho, that you can only prove you're doing your job (in the eyes of others), by making certain that there are enough women, minorities employed by your company?

Ie, by practising positive discrimination?

You could be 100% correct in claiming that your company does not discriminate, but if you employed 90% white males, people would look at your company and claim you were discriminating against women, minorities. That's just the way it works.

So you practically have to ensure that you are employing women, etc, whether or not they were the best candidate.

It's pretty conceited to assume that a woman/ethnic minority would never be the best candidate.
 
It's pretty conceited to assume that a woman/ethnic minority would never be the best candidate.

Yes it would be. Not sure why you quoted my post to make that point, tho.

Absolutely not, no.

For starters the internal work that is being done is being done to benefit the company and it's employees, not for external people to like.

The industry norm is something like 70:30 and we, as a company, do not fit with that. The challenge is to understand why, and to ensure that it isn't because any group is being discriminated against. It's not about promotion of certain groups over other groups, and it's not about offering opportunities to those groups that are lower in number - it's about ensuring that opportunities are open to all, and that the decision making isn't influenced by discrimination.

The numbers and ratios may stay the same, and that's fine as long as we understand why and that it isn't because activities are suppressing the right people with the right knowledge and skills solely because they are in a minority group.

Well, fair enough then. Carry on :)
 
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