ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

Tefal said:
iots a barrel some with an actual lit burning fuse :/

radically different from any conventional bomb with fins, known performace etc

they're dropped from highish altitudes so they don't get shot down (you can see the kind of altitude int he video its about the clarity of "that's a town" ant even pick out buildings


the other thing is the conventional bombs your talking about are dropped over and over and over again in testing sites till they cac calculate how the travel and perform so that the air force using them can develop sights, or now days computerised systems to calculate how and where the bombs will fall even without guidance.

these don't they're literately lobbed out and they land where they land with no clue how each bomb will perfom as theyre not al lthe same.
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So you are still agreeing with me...

We are talking 1940's world war 2 as i originally quoted... Not modern day computer controlled releases.

Most of the bombs during world war 2 were just dropped from a plane at towns, with extremely limited accuracy. This is no different than these are.

Do you no think the Syrian government would be using the latest and greatest smart bombs if they had the funding to do so? The simple fact is they are using whatever means they have to fight the Wahhabi fundamentalists.


Edit

I'm not going to keep re quoting posts, Do you not think I have seen videos? My point still stands about Werewolf's post.
 
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sven256 said:
So what you are saying then its no different than 99.99% of bombs dropped during the second world war then? Which was the 1940, which I was referring to.

Thank you for clarifying that.
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no the second world war had bomb sights, calibrated to the airspeed and the bomb type to provide targeting.


again tested over and over with bombs all being the same so they performed roughly the same.

these are all different built with whatever to hand thrown out at altitides probably higher than world war 2 and with no sights just pushed out the door.


oh and the helicopters fly about the same altitude as the bombing altitude of ww2 bombers.
 
sven256 said:
So you are still agreeing with me...

We are talking 1940's world war 2 as i originally quoted... Not modern day computer controlled releases.

Most of the bombs during world war 2 were just dropped from a plane at towns, with extremely limited accuracy. This is no different than these are.

Do you no think the Syrian government would be using the latest and greatest smart bombs if they had the funding to do so? The simple fact is they are using whatever means they have to fight the Wahhabi fundamentalists.
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nope you're just completely ignoring all testing bomb sights calculation, the mathematics and engineering put into place to develop all that wasn't just a placebo.
 
Tefal said:
nope you're just completely ignoring all testing bomb sights calculation, the mathematics and engineering put into place to develop all that wasn't just a placebo.
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I will admit I'm no expert in military hardware.

(yes wikki i know..)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norden_bombsight

Which was used by the Americans gave an average accuracy of 370 meters (1200 feet) under normal conditions and this was better than our planes.

"The average CEP in 1943 was 370 metres (1,200 ft), meaning that only 16% of the bombs fell within 300 metres (1,000 ft) of the aiming point."
 
Least they could actually attempt to aim them.

How can you not see, that explosives shoved in a barrel, is not the same as a properly produced bomb? It's really not difficult to understand.

They have no control over how that bomb falls or spins, they are not all the same so they don't know how the wind is going to affect it. It's a crude device which is going to hit something below, but there is no telling what or where it is going to hit.
 
This is a very "British" discussion about weapon and bomb accuracy and potential collateral damage :) I wonder if similar occurs in ISIS forums or even Russian forums? ;)
 
This is the clearest video of barrel bombs i've seen. You can clearly see that they do have fins on the back to keep them somewhat stable as they fall but are completely un-aimed and unguided. No idea if the guy filming is a civilian or not, i hope not at least.

 
Jeps said:
This is the clearest video of barrel bombs i've seen. You can clearly see that they do have fins on the back to keep them somewhat stable as they fall but are completely un-aimed and unguided. No idea if the guy filming is a civilian or not, i hope not at least.

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Those look to be regular dumb bombs being released from the munitions pylons on the stub wings.

I suspect the lack of stability might be down to the low forward airspeed of a helicopter compared to a jet.
 
sven256 said:
So what you are saying then its no different than 99.99% of bombs dropped during the second world war then? Which was the 1940, which I was referring to.

Thank you for clarifying that.
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No. You're quite frankly wrong. I think you need to go and do a bit of reading.
 
sven256 said:
Breaking news....

But my point was they are no different than old conventional bombs, are they not?. The difference is these are dropped from a lower altitudes and at a slower pace so likely to be more accurate.

Which contradicts the previous statement which i quoted.
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I'm assuming you are being deliberately obtuse, because the video posted before shows them being dropped from a great height out the back of an MI-24 literally by hand and without any guidance whatsoever.

These are not traditional "dumb bombs" they are backyard-made scrap metal cannisters packed with explosives, some with crudely welded fins.

Here is another image of two barrel bombs in the back of a MI-18:

lgrcDf3.png


Again, there is no guidance whatsoever. No scope for measuring distance to target, no computer nor even instruments for the accurate measurement and calculation of windspeed compensation or for aircraft trajectory and velocity - it is literally the guys peering out of the windows/doors and saying to each other "This'll do - push it out."
 
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Dis86 said:
You've looked only at high level mass bombing.
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And even then they mass produced the bombs to a known, relatively consistent standard (they often used the same bombs for more precise bombing at lower altitudes as well from memory).

So they knew to a fair degree where any bomb dropped under the same conditions would land.

Barrel bombs won't have anything like that, because there is zero attempt to make the aerodynamic, zero attempt to drop them in the same manner each time, and they can be loaded completely differently one bomb to another used at the same time depending on who was loading it and what they had to hand.
 
Even just going by the aerodynamics, these crudely made barrel bombs are so widely crap that if you drop two of them side by side you would not know ahead of time if they would land within 100ft of each other.
 
Why are you posting a picture of a barrel bomb? When i clearly know what one is.

And i quote again

"The average CEP in 1943 was 370 metres (1,200 ft), meaning that only 16% of the bombs fell within 300 metres (1,000 ft) of the aiming point." During world war 2. I would guess (yes guess) these are equally as accurate.

Yes I have seen that video years ago and its no more than around 8000 feet up.

The simple fact is people claiming they are as good as indiscriminate bombing then as good as claiming we would never do that. This is total bull.

They are in a war with Wahhabi fundamentalists with very little funding. What would you do?

It's all well and good sitting in your nice warm room, behind your monitor saying I would do this and this then drop bombs worth millions each on them which are accurate within meters. They simply don't have the funding or resources to do this.

If they were so bad then they would cut funding for the areas they do not control and the power would soon disappear food would totally dry up etc. But as far as i know they are still paying people wages in areas not in their control.
 
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Jeps said:
This is the clearest video of barrel bombs i've seen. You can clearly see that they do have fins on the back to keep them somewhat stable as they fall but are completely un-aimed and unguided. No idea if the guy filming is a civilian or not, i hope not at least.

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Certainly seems lower than a b17 from bombs during WW2.
 
sven256 said:
Why are you posting a picture of a barrel bomb? When i clearly know what one is.

And i quote again

"The average CEP in 1943 was 370 metres (1,200 ft), meaning that only 16% of the bombs fell within 300 metres (1,000 ft) of the aiming point." During world war 2. I would guess (yes guess) these are equally as accurate.

Yes I have seen that video years ago and its no more than around 8000 feet up.

The simple fact is people claiming they are as good as indiscriminate bombing then as good as claiming we would never do that. This is total bull.

They are in a war with Wahhabi fundamentalists with very little funding. What would you do?

It's all well and good sitting in your nice warm room, behind your monitor saying I would do this and this then drop bombs worth millions each on them which are accurate within meters. They simply don't have the funding or resources to do this.

If they were so bad then they would cut funding for the areas they do not control and the power would soon disappear food would totally dry up etc. But as far as i know they are still paying people wages in areas not in their control.
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There's a few plot-holes in your narrative.

1) It assumes they are dropping these bombs out of desperate attempts to kill Jihadi terrorists (or even to kill any one target in particular, regardless of what/who that target may be). They are not. They are aiming to terrorize the occupants in the towns and cities they have been bombing, much the same as they did with artillery shelling of residential zones, storming in with tanks and shooting everyone and everything. KNOWING they were civilians and not combatants.

2) That we don't also agree that the allies did stuff 70-75 years ago which is abhorrent.

3) That dropping a roughshod barrel of explosives out the back of a helicopter at height BY HAND is anywhere near as accurate as a properly machined and delivered munition would ever be.

4) False cause. Whatever happened in WW2 is nothing to do with what is happening in Syria today.
 
RoboCod said:
Their defence budget and their surprisingly good R&D in arms.

Or is this a loaded question so you can say the evil West arm them.
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Slightly loaded,

However you cannot deny that Israel has basically free access to advanced western military technology. Syria on the other hand is subject to Siege conditions (AKA "Sanctions") and therefore has to rely on whatever their military people can cobble together.

The choice is Barrel Bombs Vs defeat! Given that choice, were I a member of the Government forces, I would be pushing barrel bombs out of my chopper just as enthusiastically as they are!

What is more,

Were I a Christian/Jew/Hindu/Zoroastrian/Pastaerfarian/whatever, living in Syria today I would likely be supporting the Government because the last thing I would want would be for any of the Muslim factions to win! Even the most moderate ones would still turn want to turn my life to ****!
 
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