ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

scorza · 7 Dec 2015 at 13:45

People need to stop mocking the Islamic State and start respecting them as an enemy nation state that we're at war against (whether we like it or not). Adolf Hitler said that one of the reasons why Germany lost WW1 was because their propaganda was all wrong - portraying France and Britain as jokes to be laughed at rather than a serious threat, a mistake he corrected for WW2. We're making the exact same mistake now. Have a look at this report on how IS is building a nation out of the remnants of Iraq and Syria: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/07/leaked-isis-document-reveals-plan-building-state-syria

It's pathetic that it's taken our political leaders this long to decide on a name for them - ISIL-Daesh. Yeah let's call them a name they supposedly don't like, that'll show them our defiance :rolleyes:

Ayahuasca · 7 Dec 2015 at 13:50

Good points scorza, IS might not have the training or equipment to deal with us head on in war but they are still capable of carrying out planned attacks where hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians are killed and that is nothing to joke about.

It looks like a US air strike has killed 3 Syrian government forces.

jonneymendoza · 7 Dec 2015 at 14:07

scorza said:
People need to stop mocking the Islamic State and start respecting them as an enemy nation state that we're at war against (whether we like it or not). Adolf Hitler said that one of the reasons why Germany lost WW1 was because their propaganda was all wrong - portraying France and Britain as jokes to be laughed at rather than a serious threat, a mistake he corrected for WW2. We're making the exact same mistake now. Have a look at this report on how IS is building a nation out of the remnants of Iraq and Syria: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/07/leaked-isis-document-reveals-plan-building-state-syria

It's pathetic that it's taken our political leaders this long to decide on a name for them - ISIL-Daesh. Yeah let's call them a name they supposedly don't like, that'll show them our defiance

Lol

Mynight · 7 Dec 2015 at 14:14

Seems fair enough. Should never underestimate anything let alone an enemy.

Terminal_Boy · 7 Dec 2015 at 14:17

scorza said:
People need to stop mocking the Islamic State and start respecting them as an enemy nation state that we're at war against (whether we like it or not). Adolf Hitler said that one of the reasons why Germany lost WW1 was because their propaganda was all wrong - portraying France and Britain as jokes to be laughed at rather than a serious threat, a mistake he corrected for WW2. We're making the exact same mistake now. Have a look at this report on how IS is building a nation out of the remnants of Iraq and Syria: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/07/leaked-isis-document-reveals-plan-building-state-syria

It's pathetic that it's taken our political leaders this long to decide on a name for them - ISIL-Daesh. Yeah let's call them a name they supposedly don't like, that'll show them our defiance

Nothing to do with Germany trying to fight the Soviet Union, the USA and the British Commonwealth all at the same time then?

jonneymendoza · 7 Dec 2015 at 14:22

Mynight said:
Seems fair enough. Should never underestimate anything let alone an enemy.

i laughed because no one is underestimating them or taking the ****

Mynight · 7 Dec 2015 at 14:25

jonneymendoza said:
i laughed because no one is underestimating them or taking the ****

My bad

.

scorza · 7 Dec 2015 at 14:42

jonneymendoza said:
i laughed because no one is underestimating them or taking the ****

That's not what General Stanley McChrystal, who I have an enormous amount of respect for, thinks in that article:

Gen Stanley McChrystal (retired), who led the military units that helped destroy Isis’s predecessor organisation (ISI) in Iraq from 2006 to 2008, said: “If it is indeed genuine, it is fascinating and should be read by everyone – particularly policymakers in the west.

“If the west sees Isis as an almost stereotypical band of psychopathic killers, we risk dramatically underestimating them.

“In the Principles in the administration of the Islamic State, you see a focus on education (really indoctrination) beginning with children but progressing through their ranks, a recognition that effective governance is essential, thoughts on their use of technology to master information (propaganda), and a willingness to learn from the mistakes of earlier movements.

“It’s not a big departure from the works of Mao, the practices of the Viet Minh in Indochina, or other movements for whom high-profile actions were really just the tip of a far more nuanced iceberg of organising activity.

Also, if no-one is taking the **** - then what is that picture a few posts up doing?

do_ron_ron · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:00

scorza said:
People need to stop mocking the Islamic State and start respecting them as an enemy nation state that we're at war against (whether we like it or not). Adolf Hitler said that one of the reasons why Germany lost WW1 was because their propaganda was all wrong - portraying France and Britain as jokes to be laughed at rather than a serious threat, a mistake he corrected for WW2. We're making the exact same mistake now. Have a look at this report on how IS is building a nation out of the remnants of Iraq and Syria: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/07/leaked-isis-document-reveals-plan-building-state-syria

IS is not an enemy nation state because it is not/has not been recognised by anybody, they are insurgents in the nation states of Iraq and Syria. Propaganda is one of the lesser effective tools in wartime because people are not dumb, the first casualty in war is always the truth.

Rroff · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:03

do_ron_ron said:
IS is not an enemy nation state because it is not/has not been recognised by anybody, they are insurgents in the nation states of Iraq and Syria. Propaganda is one of the lesser effective tools in wartime because people are not dumb, the first casualty in war is always the truth.

No but there is a dangerous problem there - approaching them like a standard insurgency is a serious tactical error - to effectively deal with them they have to be recognised for what they are.

I wouldn't say we are under-estimating them as such but there is a tendency to use the known and practised routines against them as if they are another rag tag group when they are an entity who have learnt from the mistakes of those rag tag groups and employing superior tactics and organisation.

Tefal · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:07

scorza said:
That's not what General Stanley McChrystal, who I have an enormous amount of respect for, thinks in that article:

Also, if no-one is taking the **** - then what is that picture a few posts up doing?

thing is scorza this is ww1 or 2 or even Vietnam, the population is so distanced from this skirmish that it makes no odds if the population think they're a terrible threat or has no idea about them at all it affects nothing.

Isis are to all intents and purposes an occasional TV program to be discussed with mild interest in between the more important matters of the latest football match and what's everyone doing this Friday

Glaucus · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:21

do_ron_ron said:
IS is not an enemy nation state because it is not/has not been recognised by anybody, they are insurgents in the nation states of Iraq and Syria. Propaganda is one of the lesser effective tools in wartime because people are not dumb, the first casualty in war is always the truth.

Which is silly as they have full control of a country sized area. When Iraq has stop paying public workers wages in IS controlled areas, it can hardly be called Iraq.

I can also understand why west don't want to recognise them as a country, but they are far more than insurgents.

scorza · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:25

Tefal said:
thing is scorza this is ww1 or 2 or even Vietnam, the population is so distanced from this skirmish that it makes no odds if the population think they're a terrible threat or has no idea about them at all it affects nothing.

Isis are to all intents and purposes an occasional TV program to be discussed with mild interest in between the more important matters of the latest football match and what's everyone doing this Friday

That's why we're going to lose then - we need a bit of gravel in our guts and some spit in our eye to win eyes instead of an annual obsession over the winner of Strictly/X-Factor/Jungle.

Tefal · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:26

Glaucus said:
Which is silly as they have full control of a country sized area. When Iraq has stop paying public workers wages in IS controlled areas, it can hardly be called Iraq.

I can also understand why west don't want to recognise them as a country, but they are far more than insurgents.

theres a big difference between controlling an aera while it slowly deteriorates and actually governing an aera.

can you show me a single ISIS road construction project or general maintenance effort?

or is it simply land held while everything on it slowly crumbles

Tefal · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:27

scorza said:
That's why we're going to lose then - we need a bit of gravel in our guts and some spit in our eye to win eyes instead of an annual obsession over the winner of Strictly/X-Factor/Jungle.

ok great scorza! With all your gutzy gravel and spit filled eyes, what has your hyped up, fully informed and totally non underestimating the enemy attitude done to help the war effort?

Rroff · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:29

Tefal said:
theres a big difference between controlling an aera while it slowly deteriorates and actually governing an aera.

can you show me a single ISIS road construction project or general maintenance effort?

or is it simply land held while everything on it slowly crumbles

They have "social" programs in place welfare/construction of utilities, etc. what the actual reality of it though I can't tell you - most of the reports seem to indicate they are nothing but words.

Glaucus · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:31

Tefal said:
ok great scorza! With all your gutzy gravel and spit filled eyes, what has your hyped up, fully informed and totally non underestimating the enemy attitude done to help the war effort?

That's very much what they do, that's the entire point of Isis, a single world state under their control. Read any report about Isis governance.

Can start here
https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/isil-and-governance

One snippet

ISIL coordinates hospitals, bakeries, humanitarian aid and the running or repair of infrastructure of all kinds, from the water pipelines to large dams and power stations. It ensures that civil servants paid by the Syrian government actually carry out their work, which again is not the case in all areas of Syria. All this is to ensure that, just as it secures a monopoly over the use of force, it has a similar monopoly over vital services.

ISIL’s management of water and power is a prime example of how it ensures proper service delivery to those under its control; it does so with the ambition of creating an air of normalcy. In Deir Al Zour, people we interviewed reported significant improvement in the provision of water and electricity in the area. They said that before ISIL arrived they would typically have had several consecutive days without electricity but after ISIL’s takeover, people had been getting at least ten hours of electricity a day.

NickK · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:32

scorza said:
People need to stop mocking the Islamic State and start respecting them as an enemy nation state that we're at war against (whether we like it or not). Adolf Hitler said that one of the reasons why Germany lost WW1 was because their propaganda was all wrong - portraying France and Britain as jokes to be laughed at rather than a serious threat, a mistake he corrected for WW2. We're making the exact same mistake now. Have a look at this report on how IS is building a nation out of the remnants of Iraq and Syria: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/07/leaked-isis-document-reveals-plan-building-state-syria

It's pathetic that it's taken our political leaders this long to decide on a name for them - ISIL-Daesh. Yeah let's call them a name they supposedly don't like, that'll show them our defiance

So, on two fronts:

The state "handbook" as propaganda for the promise it proposes. Effectively it also promotes to individuals the way that they should "create there own IS" areas in other countries.

They are, as it states, a state of terror - effectively requiring a Borg-esque be assimilated or die.

I thin the focus on the financial aspects of the IS is correct, because to apply their terror that requires people to utilise the handbook - akin to Meine Kampf - as ideology. The the publication should be made illegal and to own or disseminate it should be a criminal act, those accessing should be put on a watch register.

The handbook therefore also seeks to justify the extremist in acts of violence because the allied bombing of targets to put clamps down on their finances impacts their "social charter".

What they fail to mention is that the entire state exists for one purpose - fund and support the expansion of the state.

So the state invaded Syria from Iraq, attempted to annex the country against the wishes of it's majority population - resulting in murder/rape.

The only way is through economics - depower the egressing invaders, demonstrate the propaganda is untrue. The assets they have stolen in natural gas etc are just the same goal.

It is the same way you bring down a country - therefore I don't think any military is underestimating (perhaps the US military).

Tefal · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:34

Glaucus said:
That's very much what they do, that's the entire point of Isis, a single world state under their control. Read any report about Isis governance.

Can start here
https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/isil-and-governance

One snippet

impressive, so presumably we could start concentrating on removing these resources from them? they have to be buying pipes and cables from somewhere?

or would that contravene the laws regarding you cant target water/power works etc/

ahhh the article says they're taking the delivery of international aid and redistributing it themselves to those that swear allegiance to them and cutting it of from those that dont

and other systems seem to be robbing from one area to give to another?

Glaucus · 7 Dec 2015 at 15:37

I don't know what the laws are on such thing, but we are targeting oil refineries atm, which Si where they get the majority of the money.

Trouble is we do not recognise them for what they are, and as such the military isn't doing what is needed. This is mainly down to lack of public support fir any action what so ever. Because well people are clueless.

These areas are no long Iraq or Syria and the sooner UN actual recognises this, the better.