Bad driving in the UK - What is the solution?

[SexyGreyFox]

Maybe a week ago but I prior to that I had much more than little idea of what it contained.

What prompted you to pick it up?

Mrs SexyGreyFox reminded me that in the early 90s (before Internet) I bought a Highway Code because of something my 'lift' kept doing in the car. I bought it after seeing his Dad do exactly the same thing and they were both correct (*).
I only searched for that bit then put it down.



(*) - my lift kept flashing other motorists to say "Hey I'm here, don't do anything stupid" and apparently that is why you flash and not to say "Go on mate, I'm letting you go".
Of course him doing what he did caused near accidents because motorists would pull out.
I wonder if the Highway Code has now changed on flashing to mean what most drivers thinks it means?


Rule 110

Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.

Rule 111

Never assume that flashing headlights is a signal inviting you to proceed. Use your own judgement and proceed carefully.

 

[Vonhelmet]

I dare say flashing headlights has been lost to being a signal to proceed. That being said, I'd always exercise caution when being flashed at, as you can't blindly proceed on the assumption that the flasher has somehow determined for you that it's safe to go.

It's a bit like beeping your horn, which no longer means "I'm here, look out", and seems these days to mean "I'm stuck in a queue with no conception that there might be something blocking the drivers in front" or perhaps "ALRIGHT GEEZER I'M IN CAR WHOOOOAAAAA GIVE US A WAVE!!!"

 

[Fuzz]

Or a signal to say WTF ARE YOU DOING SAT THERE WHEN THERE'S NOTHING COMING... MOVE FFS

 

[DampDog]

Bit like VW

When they are on their test they go into "cheat mode" afterwards (if they pass) all sorts of crap is emitted onto the road from that day evermore !!

LOL.. That's a reasonable analogy. Folk are aware of what's required to pass and for duration of the test modify their behaviour accordingly. Once they pass and their driving is no longer being observed and held in check they throw away all the bits they don't deem important. As has been mentioned above, I know a chap who drives 60-70 yards the wrong way up a one-way street every single morning because he can cut straight through to a car park. It's not that he doesn't know he's breaking the law, it's simply he thinks it doesn't apply to him.

I think that applies to the vast majority of inconsiderate/aggressive drivers on the road. It's not ignorance of the signage/law. It's down to them not giving a stuff. It's like being tailgated, they don't "forget" to leave adequate space, their is intent in their actions.

 

[Aeleys]

The biggest problem is hesitation and such things like most people not knowing how big their car is....going 10 feet to the side just to overtake a car that's half parked on the road. DRIVES ME MAD.

And in my town they sell cars that don't come with indicators or the ones that do only use them a split second before or after they start to turn.

 

[Freefaller]

I've driven around the world, and all countries have their issues. The UK is pretty good compared to most though, however it does seem to be getting worse.

Whilst not a solution the driving standards are a reason why I've gone down the dashcam route - it won't help but it might capture something to mitigate any involvement I may be in.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

The biggest problem is hesitation and such things like most people not knowing how big their car is....going 10 feet to the side just to overtake a car that's half parked on the road. DRIVES ME MAD.

I appreciate it but it makes me laugh when I'm cycling and a motorist gives me about 10 foot. Mind you for those that do there's an equal amount who are very close to hitting me.

 

[Aeleys]

No sympathy for you cyclists...especially when you go for sunday rides 3 wide in a pack of 20 and don't MOVE

Jokes aside, it's never gonna be perfect

 

[Vonhelmet]

No sympathy for you cyclists...especially when you go for sunday rides 3 wide in a pack of 20 and don't MOVE

Jokes aside, it's never gonna be perfect

Everything on the roads is so antagonistic. Lorry drivers, car drivers, taxi drivers, bus drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists, pedestrians... Everyone gets so wound up with everyone else. The reality is that our roads are no longer fit for purpose and are massively overloaded, but until that gets sorted we'll all just continue behaving more horribly towards each other.

 

[Hyburnate]

I appreciate it but it makes me laugh when I'm cycling and a motorist gives me about 10 foot. Mind you for those that do there's an equal amount who are very close to hitting me.

If I'm on a straight road and there's nobody coming and I can make sure of that, I'll use the other lane (if I'm doing ~60mph) just because it makes me feel better about it. I'd rather give them as much room as possible than possibly **** them off


I get fed up of people driving, yesterday already on a dual carriageway matched my speed as to not let me on, he then cut me up and proceeded to be an arse (following me from lane to lane). Seems my hand on horn and full beam blinding him didn't help

Last night I had a car sit at ~60mph in a 70 in the fast lane, and also last night a Punto pull out on me at a roundabout. There is so many bad drives about

 

[krisboats]

It is over 100 miles from Penzance to the nearest motorway - Thurso is more than 200 miles to the nearest motorway.

Your suggestion is impractical and unworkable. Motorways are about the easiest roads to drive on as well, they do not really require a special test.

Distance doesn't really convey any meaning to be fair. You can cover 100 miles in a 2 hour driving lesson if you're capable. Someone who's been driving for 6 months already should have no problem with a 1-200 mile trip and if they're so far removed from a motorway they may not need one anyway, they wouldn't need to hire a driving instructor for it, simply use their own car. All it would cost would be time/fuel and the test itself.

Compared to a driving lesson at 2 hours, costing an average of £25 per hour, then however much for the current test itself, the cost will be more or less the same.

Motorways aren't the easiest roads to drive on for timid drivers and requiring a test would remove a lot of people that are simply too hesitant to drive on a motorway.


At the end of the day our roads are overly congested and large amount of drivers are simply unfit to be driving. Regular retests would free up space and ensure better driving overall. English motorways are appallingly used and better education IS needed

 

[Rilot]

Personally, I think the standard of driving on the UK's motorways is actually fine on the whole. It's on NSL A and B roads where I see the really shocking driving.

 

[eatcustard]

Personally, I think the standard of driving on the UK's motorways is actually fine on the whole. It's on NSL A and B roads where I see the really shocking driving.

I agree during week days when professional drivers are using it, but weekends it goes to pot

 

[snowdog]

I don't understand why people get hung up on the notion of "re-test" every X-number of years. The roads are full of drivers who drove to the standard for the duration of the test and know the standard required. Problem is, once they are behind the wheel by themselves they drive like utter lunatics with no regard for either their own or others safety, even basic road markings are too much trouble to comply with.

I disagree, these ''utter lunatics'' by your view are hardly the biggest problem on the roads, the biggest problem are the people who have no idea of the driving standard, or have no clue how the car works and behaves ( oversteer/udnersteer, inner workings of simple things like a gearbox or clutch, let alone what their wheels are doing, or how to reverse park), or are to slow/blind to drive (mostly elderly). Basically people who have no coordination at all, and are also rubbish at reading and anticipating traffic situations.

Personally I don't believe people who have rubbish control of the vehicle ( eg. have no clue what to do if it under or oversteers or how to properly recover from 2 wheels in the roadside, or hell, even park a car) shouldn't be driving. Same as people who are still afraid after half a year of driving ( sorry for my lack of empathy, but if you're somehow so anxious behind the wheel then perhaps you shouldn't be driving at all).

Do you think that they suddenly lost the ability or forgot how to drive within a few months/years OR simply have the mind-set that the rules don't apply to them? The majority realise they are doing something wrong but simply don't give a toss. If you put the majority back under test conditions they'd modify their driving for the time required to pass the test then carry on regardless.

You can teach almost anyone how to drive, what is much harder to do is change their attitude to driving or to other drivers.

The lack of traffic cars on the road to catch poor, irresponsible drivers is the problem. Safety cameras that rake in money but only force folk to adhere to the speed limit for 30-40 yard don't make drivers safer. All the do is hit the brakes everytime the satnav beeps.

They lost the physical ability, or never had it in the first place and somehow passed the test by having an easy route or being friendly or lucky with the examiner.

I disagree that the biggest problem is the youths, if you look at the accident statistics, accidents under young people have dropped a lot, and the biggest group is now the elderly (65+).

The problem is also generally dumb people who have no clue about their cars or traffic. It's mind boggling how many stupid/dumb bordering to mentally impaired morons are on the roads, and how they somehow manage to drive safely.


To be honest, I'm willing to go as far as saying, the UK is one of the safest countries traffic wise in Europe: There is no problem with road safety in the UK.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Distance doesn't really convey any meaning to be fair.

Well, it does.

You can cover 100 miles in a 2 hour driving lesson if you're capable.

And then 2 hours back again, plus the actual motorway time, suddenly this pointless test is an all-day event!

Motorways aren't the easiest roads to drive on for timid drivers and requiring a test would remove a lot of people that are simply too hesitant to drive on a motorway.

There are, I agree, a small handful of drivers who are irrational nervous Motorway wrecks. We all know one. However they usually self police themselves by never going anywhere near a Motorway anyway.

Once you make it onto a Motorway you realise using one is trivially easy - dual carriageways are actually more filled with risk and danger than Motorways as the speeds are the same but the junction, bend and road standards are lower.

 

[krisboats]

Well, it does.

And then 2 hours back again, plus the actual motorway time, suddenly this pointless test is an all-day event!

Well the average amount of lessons to pass a uk driving test is 40-45 lessons. At a decent price of £20 a lesson and only 40 lessons you're looking at £800. A 400 mile round trip at 30mpg is around £90. Should a one day trip for a very small amount of drivers really be a reason to avoid being taught to drive on a motorway safely?

There are, I agree, a small handful of drivers who are irrational nervous Motorway wrecks. We all know one. However they usually self police themselves by never going anywhere near a Motorway anyway.

Once you make it onto a Motorway you realise using one is trivially easy - dual carriageways are actually more filled with risk and danger than Motorways as the speeds are the same but the junction, bend and road standards are lower.

The potential for massive damage is much higher on a motorway, especially when busy. More lanes, more vehicles and generally much shorter stopping distances (again, people need better education on etiquette for this) and its easier to cause a lot more damage on a motorway if you make a mistake. The idea of a motorway is trivially easy, and after my europe trips i'd say the better motorways abroad make it extremely easy to drive on, but unfortunately the driving standards for uk motorways are pretty poor. I've not seen people cruising along in the outside lane abroad when the motorway is clear, yet it seems a regular occurrence over here. Uk drivers tend to pick the lane they like and then stay in it, regardless of where they should be and who else is around them.

They lost the physical ability, or never had it in the first place and somehow passed the test by having an easy route or being friendly or lucky with the examiner.

I disagree that the biggest problem is the youths, if you look at the accident statistics, accidents under young people have dropped a lot, and the biggest group is now the elderly (65+).

The problem is also generally dumb people who have no clue about their cars or traffic. It's mind boggling how many stupid/dumb bordering to mentally impaired morons are on the roads, and how they somehow manage to drive safely.

I'd agree with this a lot. Driving tests have changed over the years and i'd wager a lot of people wouldn't pass them now if retests were in place. My parents often make mistakes that would have failed on a driving test and my nan said when she passed all she had to do was drive round the village for 20 minutes with her tester being a friend of the family. This was 50 something years ago!!! Seeing all the old people come into b & q on the over 60's discount day makes for a lot of bad driving and the staff park at the far end of the car park every week now because of the number of accidents that have happened there.

I got run over by an older driver who didn't indicate and took the corner too fast as i was half way across it.

My closest to having a car accident was turning the corner on a one way street 20 seconds from my house in the middle of the afternoon to find an elderly man driving straight at me the wrong way round the corner on a one way street. He'd needed to drive 200 feet up a one way street to even get to that corner!!! I think the only reason i didn't hit him was because i was only doing around 10mph in first gear round the corner, normally cars take that corner at 20-25 ish!

Cheeky beggar tried to have a go at me for driving "in the middle of the road" haha.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Well the average amount of lessons to pass a uk driving test is 40-45 lessons.

So?

Should a one day trip for a very small amount of drivers really be a reason to avoid being taught to drive on a motorway safely?

Yes. It isn't just a small number of drivers either, there are numerous entire counties without a motorway in them. The whole country of Wales has just one Motorway, along it's southern coast only*.

*Alright M48 fanboys, stop being pedantic.

The potential for massive damage is much higher on a motorway, especially when busy. More lanes, more vehicles and generally much shorter stopping distances (again, people need better education on etiquette for this) and its easier to cause a lot more damage on a motorway if you make a mistake.

Do you have figures to hand for the number of accidents caused by new drivers making mistakes on Motorways?

The Motorways are the safest roads in the UK because they are simple, easy to use, you are segregated from conflicting traffic movements and they contain only grade separated junctions and slight bends.

Dual carriageways are more hazardous.

 

[krisboats]

So?



Yes. It isn't just a small number of drivers either, there are numerous entire counties without a motorway in them. The whole country of Wales has just one Motorway, along it's southern coast only*.

*Alright M48 fanboys, stop being pedantic.



Do you have figures to hand for the number of accidents caused by new drivers making mistakes on Motorways?

The Motorways are the safest roads in the UK because they are simple, easy to use, you are segregated from conflicting traffic movements and they contain only grade separated junctions and slight bends.

Dual carriageways are more hazardous.

So the financial outlay is far lower than that of passing the main driving test. Its only the time that is of relevance.

I havent looked at any figures, but while theoretically more safe, the scope of damage possible is highest on a motorway. On no other roads is it possible to have 3-5 lane pileups should an accident occur. Better education is definitely needed.

I think you're forgetting that motorway driving is entirely optional. If people didnt want to put in the effort to take a motorway test then they can always stick to other routes.

On the flipside, do you have any statistics that show dual carriageways are more dangerous? We'd have to be talking fatalities really as dual carriageway accidents can be at much lower speeds. Obviously taking into account that dual carriageways are more widespread....

Edit: i just had a check quickly. Seems dual carriageways and motorways are basically identical at 12 and 11 percent of fatalities, non-segregated duals are at 15%.

The most shocking statistic was this one:

The 28,0000-mile network of motorways and A roads outside major urban areas analysed in this report represents just 11 per cent of Britain’s road length - but carries 56 per cent of traffic and more than half (51 per cent) of all deaths.

More than half of all road deaths occur on duals and motorways, despite them only being 11% of the uk road network. Thats awful.

Also one of the worst a roads in the country is one i drive down daily.... great!!

 

[[TW]Fox]

So the financial outlay is far lower than that of passing the main driving test. Its only the time that is of relevance.

It's not the only time its of relevance at all, there are all sorts of considerations before you legally force people to make 500 mile round trips (Because you have to drive on that Motorway once you get there obviously) perhaps multiple times (What about a practice) for some silly extra test of limited value.

I havent looked at any figures

So your entire argument is based on nothing then?

, but while theoretically more safe,

They are not 'theoretically more safe', they ARE more safe.

the scope of damage possible is highest on a motorway. On no other roads is it possible to have 3-5 lane pileups should an accident occur. Better education is definitely needed.

It's possible to have 3 lane 'pileups' on dual carriageways. However 3-5 lane pileups are so rare they make national news when it happens!

On the flipside, do you have any statistics that show dual carriageways are more dangerous? We'd have to be talking fatalities really as dual carriageway accidents can be at much lower speeds. Obviously taking into account that dual carriageways are more widespread....

Obviously dual carriageways will be more dangerous - the speed limit is the same, 70mph - yet there are right angle junctions, junctions which require crossing oncoming traffic and no fullsize hard shoulder. They also permit the use of slower moving vehicles than Motorways.

More than half of all road deaths occur on duals and motorways

No, the information you have quoted tells you that figure is Motorways AND A Roads - many, probably most, A roads are single carriageway not dual carriagway and single carriageway rural roads are much more dangerous than Motorways.

 

[Havana_UK]

More than half of all road deaths occur on duals and motorways, despite them only being 11% of the uk road network. Thats awful.

From the two speed awareness courses that I have attended (2 years and 5 years ago respectively) I learned that Motorway accidents account for only 5% of KSIs (killed or seriously injured). This is due to the nature of the road, as Fox has pointed out, the two key factors being:

• Traffic is all moving in the same direction
• Traffic is all moving at approximately the same speed