Bad driving in the UK - What is the solution?

[Gaijin]

One thing that is pretty good over here is that they have TV "ads" on in the evening on popular channels essentially reminding people how to drive - similar to this:

 

[krisboats]

It's not the only time its of relevance at all, there are all sorts of considerations before you legally force people to make 500 mile round trips (Because you have to drive on that Motorway once you get there obviously) perhaps multiple times (What about a practice) for some silly extra test of limited value.



So your entire argument is based on nothing then?



They are not 'theoretically more safe', they ARE more safe.



It's possible to have 3 lane 'pileups' on dual carriageways. However 3-5 lane pileups are so rare they make national news when it happens!




Obviously dual carriageways will be more dangerous - the speed limit is the same, 70mph - yet there are right angle junctions, junctions which require crossing oncoming traffic and no fullsize hard shoulder. They also permit the use of slower moving vehicles than Motorways.



No, the information you have quoted tells you that figure is Motorways AND A Roads - many, probably most, A roads are single carriageway not dual carriagway and single carriageway rural roads are much more dangerous than Motorways.

I said its only the time, that is of relevance. Dont want to take a motorway test, stick to slower routes. Simple.

You're getting really pedantic with picking apart what i've said. At the end of the day, the POTENTIAL for highest damage is on a motorway. Rescue opportunity is lower due to limited access points and increasing traffic due to a crash is generally higher. However you want to pick things apart, all of that is true. I just dont think people should be allowed to dive onto a motorway with no prior training or experience on one and try to learn based on other drivers habits. Its a system that perpetuates bad driving habits and it really needs to change. Better education is needed and while my quick idea may not be logistically sound, its a damn sight better than is already in place.

Prior to looking at those statistics i was talking from my own experiences of international driving. From what ive seen so far, the uk's motorways were all a much worse driving experience than abroad. This was largely due to ignorance and bad driving habits. That needs to change, but its a choice between much higher enforcement or further education. Luckily it isnt my job to sort that out.

If we're being pedantic i've never seen a 90 degree turn on a 70mph dual carriageway. All exits i've seen so far have needed sliproads save for a truly awful junction on the a46 that allows drivers to cross both directions of segregated dual carriageway to cut straight across it.

 

[DampDog]

I disagree, these ''utter lunatics'' by your view are hardly the biggest problem on the roads, the biggest problem are the people who have no idea of the driving standard, or have no clue how the car works and behaves ( oversteer/udnersteer, inner workings of simple things like a gearbox or clutch, let alone what their wheels are doing, or how to reverse park), or are to slow/blind to drive (mostly elderly). Basically people who have no coordination at all, and are also rubbish at reading and anticipating traffic situations.

Personally I don't believe people who have rubbish control of the vehicle ( eg. have no clue what to do if it under or oversteers or how to properly recover from 2 wheels in the roadside, or hell, even park a car) shouldn't be driving. Same as people who are still afraid after half a year of driving ( sorry for my lack of empathy, but if you're somehow so anxious behind the wheel then perhaps you shouldn't be driving at all).

They lost the physical ability, or never had it in the first place and somehow passed the test by having an easy route or being friendly or lucky with the examiner.

I disagree that the biggest problem is the youths, if you look at the accident statistics, accidents under young people have dropped a lot, and the biggest group is now the elderly (65+).

The problem is also generally dumb people who have no clue about their cars or traffic. It's mind boggling how many stupid/dumb bordering to mentally impaired morons are on the roads, and how they somehow manage to drive safely.


To be honest, I'm willing to go as far as saying, the UK is one of the safest countries traffic wise in Europe: There is no problem with road safety in the UK.

I wouldn't go as far to say I disagree with your view, as this thread illustrates there are quite a few areas where folks driving standards fall short of what we would like to see. As your rightly say much criticism is aimed at young drivers and statistically at least they are one of the highest groups, though as you pointed out the figures for older drivers appear to be on the increase, probably due to the ageing population more senior driver are using the roads.

From experience very few people have "rubbish" vehicle control, some are better than others, but you certainly don't pass the test unless you can demonstrate that you can adequately control the vehicle. The useless manoeuvres that everyone berates are in part there to test that aspect of driving. (I think in time the manoeuvres will be signed off by instructors, leaving more time in the test for more varied driving) And under-steer, over-steer, skid control should be mentioned by a decent instructor, as is the mechanical function of the clutch. That said the focus is not on controlling a skid, it's on avoiding putting yourself and the vehicle into a situation where there is a loss of control of the vehicle. It's impossible to have learners out in every weather condition as much as you'd like to.

I think for the first couple of years post test it should be mandatory for vehicles to display a "P" badge. It would give other drivers an indication as to there novice driver experience. We all make mistakes for one reason or another, it doesn't necessarily justify the near road-rage reactions of surrounding drivers. I still hold that those who's driving style is blatantly aggressive, with little or no regard for the law or other drivers are those who cause the real issues on the roads. It's reached the point that on almost every journey you will see someone driving while texting, on the phone, tailgating or any number of other potentially dangerous behaviours/activities that go largely unchallenged.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I said its only the time, that is of relevance. Dont want to take a motorway test, stick to slower routes. Simple.

It's not 'only the time' that is of relevance. The point here is that you are advocating something that it is of great hassle to many people with little real benefit to be derived from it.

At the end of the day, the POTENTIAL for highest damage is on a motorway.

But the reality is what matters and the reality is that the Motorway network is the safest road network we have by quite some margin. Because of the way it's designed and how it works serious accidents are very rare. Serious accidents caused by inexperienced new drivers which could have been avoided by taking a one-day motorway lesson are even rarer!

I just dont think people should be allowed to dive onto a motorway with no prior training or experience on one and try to learn based on other drivers habits.

The reality is that this doesn't really happen - few people will pass a test having never used a dual carriageway, a road type that is in many ways similar to a motorway and in other ways more dangerous. If you can negotiate a dual carriageway you can negotiate a motorway.


Its a system that perpetuates bad driving habits and it really needs to change. Better education is needed and while my quick idea may not be logistically sound, its a damn sight better than is already in place.

Prior to looking at those statistics i was talking from my own experiences of international driving. From what ive seen so far, the uk's motorways were all a much worse driving experience than abroad.

This is interesting as it would directly contradict my own experience of driving internationally - I've driven extensively in North America, Australasia and Europe and our road network is first class in comparison and our driving standards are up there with the best. Try driving through Belgium without somebody 1 inch from your bumper!

If we're being pedantic i've never seen a 90 degree turn on a 70mph dual carriageway. All exits i've seen so far have needed sliproads save for a truly awful junction on the a46 that allows drivers to cross both directions of segregated dual carriageway to cut straight across it.

There are loads of them - it's one of the main reasons why many dual carriageways cannot be converted to Motorway, they have too many junctions that do not and could not easily meet motorway standards. Dual carriageways have numerous local junctions many of which will have little if any sliproad and many of which will involve crossing the opposite carriageway to enter or exit. These types of junctions are seriously hazardous and are not found on Motorways.

Our Motorways are safe and easy to drive on.

There is no credibility in the idea that you should take a separate test to drive on them. It would involve lots of hassle for almost zero gain.

 

[Howard]

Personally, I think the standard of driving on the UK's motorways is actually fine on the whole. It's on NSL A and B roads where I see the really shocking driving.

This. I can't remember the last time someone annoyed me on the motorway - If someone's hogging the middle lane or whatever, I'll just go round them, but often during my commute there's some pillock who does something daft in front of me in the town/dual carriageway environments.

 

[atpbx]

One thing that is pretty good over here is that they have TV "ads" on in the evening on popular channels essentially reminding people how to drive - similar to this:

We used to have those in the 70's and 80's.

Along with films about not sticking fishing rods on power lines.
Or climbing on power lines.
Or walking on train tracks.
Or talking to strangers.

Not setting fire to you £50 argos sofa by falling asleep with a fag on, as well as not setting your house on fire by leaving the chip pan on.

You know, adverts for stupid people.

 

[snowdog]

I wouldn't go as far to say I disagree with your view, as this thread illustrates there are quite a few areas where folks driving standards fall short of what we would like to see. As your rightly say much criticism is aimed at young drivers and statistically at least they are one of the highest groups, though as you pointed out the figures for older drivers appear to be on the increase, probably due to the ageing population more senior driver are using the roads.

Aye, I try not to generalise, but the most annoying drivers are seniors imho, you don't see the same types of failures on the road during rush hour ( working age/people) as in the afternoon or weekends.

From experience very few people have "rubbish" vehicle control, some are better than others, but you certainly don't pass the test unless you can demonstrate that you can adequately control the vehicle.

From my experience the vehicle control is abysmal, you have people who are afraid or can't park, people who are unable to drive away on an incline without going backwards first or even avoid inclines and parking garages out of fear. Fear of tunnels ( and thus braking for no apparent reason when entering one). Especially some ladies I know are unable to properly park their car, hell, my ex ( luckily long gone, 5 years ago) used to come out of her car and ask random strangers to park it for her.

Last friday it rained quite hard over here, on a 5 minute journey, I saw 3 elderly (or well, I'd like to assume so, stereotypical mini mpv's like Meriva's or Atos) drive into a kerb or miss a corner, I understand that the reflection at night and heavy rain is a bitch, but these people were really blind as hell, not to mention the armies of fearful idiots driving less than 20 mph in a 30 (far away from any junctions or crossings or corners)... I can understand being extra careful on junctions, I'll never judge anyone by that, especially in city areas you have to watch every bloody corner and double check shoulders for some cyclists or peds or scooters, but 20 mph on a road like this https://goo.gl/maps/VLefhiHgoJr because of a few drops of rain, come on.

Besides, you only have to do two special manoeuvres on your test, a lot go untested...

The useless manoeuvres that everyone berates are in part there to test that aspect of driving. (I think in time the manoeuvres will be signed off by instructors, leaving more time in the test for more varied driving) And under-steer, over-steer, skid control should be mentioned by a decent instructor, as is the mechanical function of the clutch. That said the focus is not on controlling a skid, it's on avoiding putting yourself and the vehicle into a situation where there is a loss of control of the vehicle. It's impossible to have learners out in every weather condition as much as you'd like to.

Skidding is not the same as losing control. I guess these days with ABS and ESP, even the biggest moron can be saved, but still, I find it worrying the solution to everything is to brake these days. I personally disagree, people should have a mandatory skid course.

I think for the first couple of years post test it should be mandatory for vehicles to display a "P" badge. It would give other drivers an indication as to there novice driver experience. We all make mistakes for one reason or another, it doesn't necessarily justify the near road-rage reactions of surrounding drivers. I still hold that those who's driving style is blatantly aggressive, with little or no regard for the law or other drivers are those who cause the real issues on the roads. It's reached the point that on almost every journey you will see someone driving while texting, on the phone, tailgating or any number of other potentially dangerous behaviours/activities that go largely unchallenged.

These people never really bothered me, I never have tailgaters because I simply keep to the right (or would left in the UK) when not overtaking, and tbh, I rarely get annoyed by people texting or on the phone.

I'm rather annoyed by people who fail in general, or are knowingly, or unknowingly blocking other peoples progress:

People not keeping to the left ( right in my case).
Not indicating at leaving roundabouts.
Blocking junctions ( entering junctions when can't get off them).
People cutting you up/not yielding when changing lanes (''I'm doing the speed limit so **** that guy who is driving faster on that lane'').
Cyclists who cycle 3-5 abreast (mostly kids between 12 and 18), 2 abreast I can overtake, 3+ is getting annoying.
People on sliproads that join in the first possible moment without making speed first ( seriously, **** you for joining a motorway at 40 mph).
People that expect indicating gives them the right of way.

At the end of the day, the POTENTIAL for highest damage is on a motorway. Rescue opportunity is lower due to limited access points and increasing traffic due to a crash is generally higher.
.

I disagree, motorways are by far the safest roads around, and the rescue opportunity is far better than in semi build up areas or rural villages. Emergency services can bomb it down the hard shoulder unlike in built-up areas.

You don't have crossing traffic, junctions, cyclists, pedestrians, mopeds, this eliminates the worst risks. Nobody drives into someone on a motorway with such a huge speed difference ( well they do but they're the exception), it's often a small bang when missing congestion due to distractions ( like smartphone), while in city traffic, you often see accidents with 30 or even more mph speed difference between the conflicting parties. On the motorway everybody but motorbikes are in their safe shells with crumple zones and airbags, unlike on any other road.

I don't know the UK statistics, but over here only 8% of casualties happen on motorways, the vast majority happens in built-up areas. About a quarter happens on B roads...

 

[Orionaut]

as well as not setting your house on fire by leaving the chip pan on.

You know, adverts for stupid people.

I am sure I read somewhere that the peak time of day for chip pan fires is around midnight!

 

[DampDog]

I rarely get annoyed by people texting or on the phone.

I'm rather annoyed by people who fail in general, or are knowingly, or unknowingly blocking other peoples progress:

If I'm honest even though I've been an instructor I'm not really that passionate/interested in dissecting all the faults, errors and misdemeanors of other drivers. Probably because I've done it to death in the past, and there is never a consensus on any "one thing" that people can agree on as being the most annoying dangerous sin they see on the road.

I have to say that I do find it odd that you see a lack of control in other drivers as a problem, yet at the say time you are not worried by the thought someone texting or using the phone while behind the wheel. I think I read recently that the lack of concentration/observation while driving has more effect on reaction times that drink driving and has certainly been responsible for a number of deaths.

And you have made me chuckle, in all my days I have never, ever had someone behind the wheel who is afraid of "tunnels"... Must be something in the water over there.

 

[acemastr]

You'll all soon realize that driving in the UK is simple and safe... driving elsewhere in the world is not so safe.

Tailgaiting, cutting in, no signals, cars with no lights/brake lights, bald tires, trucks lit up like the sun.

Come drive here for a week.

 

[snowdog]

If I'm honest even though I've been an instructor I'm not really that passionate/interested in dissecting all the faults, errors and misdemeanors of other drivers. Probably because I've done it to death in the past, and there is never a consensus on any "one thing" that people can agree on as being the most annoying dangerous sin they see on the road.

Yep, unfortunately, most want a relaxed drive, some want a fun drive, some want to get from A to B asap, others are even happy to just get somewhere alive (anxious drivers), etc...

I have to say that I do find it odd that you see a lack of control in other drivers as a problem, yet at the say time you are not worried by the thought someone texting or using the phone while behind the wheel. I think I read recently that the lack of concentration/observation while driving has more effect on reaction times that drink driving and has certainly been responsible for a number of deaths.

And you have made me chuckle, in all my days I have never, ever had someone behind the wheel who is afraid of "tunnels"... Must be something in the water over there.

Usually the texters/phoners are somewhere in the right/slow lane, while I'm ploughing on in the left lane. Phoners are annoying if you miss a green because some texter hasn't paid attention, but otherwise, they usually don't block the overtaking lanes.

I in no way imply they aren't dangerous, they're probably the worst of all, even if handsfree, if you're faffing about on the phone you're probably driving an autopilot and just reacting ( slowly!), not anticipating, just saying that they are not the ones who usually get in my way .

 

[Fuzz]

If we're being pedantic i've never seen a 90 degree turn on a 70mph dual carriageway. All exits i've seen so far have needed sliproads save for a truly awful junction on the a46 that allows drivers to cross both directions of segregated dual carriageway to cut straight across it.

I can think of two straight away and one is on a Motorway!
M50 Gloucester junction 2. think
A30 "somewhere" in Cornwall an exit to the fuel station (and re-entry) with little to NO slip road at all!

 

[[TW]Fox]

I can think of two straight away and one is on a Motorway!
M50 Gloucester junction 2. think

The M50 is unique among Motorways in that it isn't actually to Motorway standard - it has a number of junctions which are not compliant as well as very short sliproads. I think it's because it was one of the first.