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Monster Hunter Online to now have TressFX in addition to Gameworks

When people say a developer can't optimize a Gamesworks effect for AMD a hardware its very disingenuous because it misses the entire point of GW. The developer also can't optimize the effect for nvidia hardware actually, the whole point is they don;' have to spend time optimizing. Are people complaining that a developer can't optimize Gamesworks for Nvidia hardware? no, so I don't see why anyone should complain when the same applies to AMD hardware. If the developer wants to do micro-optimizations then they either have to license the source code, or go with a different solution. the developer knows that from the very start.I know if I make a windows program I can't suddenly ask Microsoft for windows source code., its just something you accept

You can't see why AMD should complain? :eek: You do realise that Nvidia can and do optimize GW for their own gpu's even if the dev can't. Can AMD do the same? Since it's closed of course they can't...Hence the complaints from the AMD side.
If there is a problem with GW that affects Nvidia card performance then Nvidia will no doubt fix it within the GW libraries. However they won't lift a finger if it affects AMD cards.
 
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Christ almighty, can we not have a civilized discussion these days?

My thoughts, nice to see both GW and TFX in a single game. Hopefully this will become a more common thing.
 
Just correcting people who are wrong. I would happily correct people who are wrong about AMD, but on this forum it is over run by people spread outright lies about Nvidia, constantly.... SNIP

No.

It's like when you get a new car, suddenly you see those car's all the time because you are looking for it.
 
You can't see why AMD should complain? :eek: You do realise that Nvidia can and do optimize GW for their own gpu's even if the dev can't. Can AMD do the same? Since it's closed of course they can't...Hence the complaints from the AMD side.
If there is a problem with GW that affects Nvidia card performance then Nvidia will no doubt fix it within the GW libraries. However they won't lift a finger if it affects AMD cards.

There is a simple solution to this, Nvidia can just not allow games works effect to be allowed on AMD GPUs.
 
No.

It's like when you get a new car, suddenly you see those car's all the time because you are looking for it.

No,

On other forums I never see this kind of constant attacks on Nvidia and singing AMD PR marketing spiel. Forums like beyond3D are much more balanced than here with fanboys fm either side quickly singled out, no favoritism, with equal amounts of praise and critique whenever it's deserved.
 
All fair enough.

It would be extremely evil of Nvidia to block developers form using AMD TressFX/etc. as well as gamesworks, it is also liely illegal or unenforceable. I would be extremely against Nvidia doing that kind of lock in, but they don't thankfully.

They have done it multiple times with multiple pieces of software. Locking ageia cards out, locking their own cards out from running physx with an AMD card present, locking out AA in Batman, the list goes on and on.

I don't care that gamesworks is closed source, there are pros and cons to open source. What I do like that NVidia does with GW since it is closed source is that Nvidia asks the developers what the developers want, Nvidia develops those features at Nvidia's expense, nvidia can then share those new features with any other developer. This actually happened with the Witcher 3. IN an open source environment tings aren't clear cut. A developer might download the TressFX openGPU SDK, invest a lot of time and effort making it better or adding new features and keep all of those improvements secret and in-house. Of course they could be generous and release them back to the open source community, but that would be giving their hardwork to competitors.

Nothing you said was a con to open source, and nothing you said was a pro for closed source changes if the code is open source. The dev can still used the provided unchanged code. YOu entirely miss the point over and over.


When people say a developer can't optimize a Gamesworks effect for AMD a hardware its very disingenuous because it misses the entire point of GW. The developer also can't optimize the effect for nvidia hardware actually, the whole point is they don;' have to spend time optimizing. Are people complaining that a developer can't optimize Gamesworks for Nvidia hardware? no, so I don't see why anyone should complain when the same applies to AMD hardware. If the developer wants to do micro-optimizations then they either have to license the source code, or go with a different solution. the developer knows that from the very start.I know if I make a windows program I can't suddenly ask Microsoft for windows source code., its just something you accept

Nonsense, complete and utter nonsense. Yes, the dev can optimise for gameworks for Nvidia cards because Nvidia can tell them how to optimise. YOu can't easily or fully optimise without EITHER access to the sourcecode to work out how to optimise yourself OR someone with access telling you exactly how to optimise for it.

More to the point, Nvidia can optimise on their end because it's their code in the first place. You call people disingenuous then claim devs can't optimise for Nvidia in gameworks.

The most important thing about open source code is that everyone can see what the code is.

IF you were a coder(which you don't appear to be from what I know) you'd know there are many algorithms to achieve the same result. With open source code you can verify that everyone is running the same code(relatively speaking), with closed source you have no idea what is being run. It's exceptionally easy to have a path for Nvidia and a path for AMD that is slower and places more processing and thus slower performance. With TressFX Nvidia can look through the code and check for code that would harm them, there may be code in there that simply due to a different architecture is very bad for one side and good for the other. Again with TressFX there is nothing stopping Nvidia finding any such code and implementing a fix in driver as well as talking with the dev and implementing a fix in the game code as the devs aren't prevented from changing the TressFX code in such a way.

You talk about Witcher 3 and AMD implementing a tessellation limit or the game needing to implement it. Did it ever occur to you that Nvidia do this automatically in their driver without telling anyone? Most importantly there are only two options, they have code that will use tessellation that will hurt performance without a single pixel of IQ improvement... in which case they are incompetent and gameworks isn't that good. The only other possibility is they enable a default ultra high mode and have the same tessellation driver limit AMD have as an option in their driver, but make it a hidden option. In other words they enable high tessellation to hurt AMD performance on purpose, don't tell devs to optimise it then limit it in drivers giving an unfair advantage.

Again the advantage of open source is you can confirm for a fact these problems aren't happening. With closed source Gameworks you can't.

In case you go back to talking about various licenses for allowing source code access, again the facts are very clear. They did not have an option for this originally, they only started to offer one AFTER public attention and multiple dodgy gameworks games. They refused to state the cost, if it was a fair and reasonable cost why refuse to disclose it, if it's obscenely high then it's an excuse to say you offer such a license while knowing no one would ever purchase it... in effect meaning they don't offer such a license.

I can't name a developer that has brought the source code license. Lastly, how many Gameworks games have had huge problems with optimisation in general. Unrealistic smoke in, most of the games they implement gameworks smoke, completely overdone and unrealistic + crap performance, what a great feature.
 
Why does TressFX only seem to be used for hair?

Why is it not being used for grass/plant rendering, for example? Too costly?
 
Why does TressFX only seem to be used for hair?

Why is it not being used for grass/plant rendering, for example? Too costly?

Hairworks and tressfx give 10-30fps loss now that's for a head of air a monster in w3 now compare a wolf hair vs and entire landscape billions of tellsations we would get 3fps :(
 
Hairworks and tressfx give 10-30fps loss now that's for a head of air a monster in w3 now compare a wolf hair vs and entire landscape billions of tellsations we would get 3fps :(

This is why you use distance based LOD. Only things in the near distance need a decent amount of tesselation, then reduce the amount the further the object is away from the view port. Considering if you have a zoom then the viewport will change meaning the distant becomes the near etc.
 
There is a simple solution to this, Nvidia can just not allow games works effect to be allowed on AMD GPUs.

Finally, a response that shows what you ultimately want deep down. I guess if Nvidia did do that many devs would then find alternatives rather than alienate half their customer base.

Nvidia did try that with the initial physx stuff but had to release physx for cpu after devs stuck with Havok due to its universal support.
 
Without getting stuck into this debate, we all remember PCars and the lengthy debate about how Nvidia/SMS had purposefully crippled performance on AMD GPUs with PhysX being used but SMS responded and put the record straight. A few here jumped on the bandwagon and it worked out that AMD needed to optimise (which they hadn't done) but it just shows how easy it is to accuse others of this and that without knowing the facts.

I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong as well and blah blah blah but GameWorks/TressFX needs optimising at driver level and like the big argument between AMD and Nvidia, AMD don't need access to the code to optimise. Like anything that is demanding, if you can't run it, turn it down or disable it. Simples :)


PCars was a completely joke with so many blatant lies form AMD, e.g. PCars uses GPUS physx which gave Nvidia cards an unfair advantage, except for the fact that PCARs only uses CPU physX which is irrelevant to the GPU, and ths soruce code can be downloaded here:
https://developer.nvidia.com/physx-source-github


Of course by the time AMD were forced to apologize their marketing stunt had already achieved what it set out to do and horded of loyal AMD fanboys now spread the same PR rubbish across the internet.
 
PCars was a completely joke with so many blatant lies form AMD, e.g. PCArs uses GPUS physx which gave Nvidia cards an unfair advantage, except for the fact that PCARs only uses CPU physX which is irrelevant to the PGU, and ths soruce code can be downloaded here:
https://developer.nvidia.com/physx-source-github

Yer, my point was how quickly people point the finger without knowing the facts. Take the latest Nvidia lambasting with Apple and D3/Porn. People love to hate it seems and when it is explained, they either leave and not say a word or come out with something else to justify their hate campaign.

I am not that fussed but I have been here long enough to see this year on year and both as bad as each other (and probably been there myself at times without realising).

It pays to take a step back and find the facts before jumping the gun.
 
Finally, a response that shows what you ultimately want deep down.
What, I don't care what Nvidia do.:confused: Nvidia have generously allowed AMD users to enjoy NVidia's propreitry technology, and all they get for it is a load of stcik form AMD fanboys. As I said, Nvidia have a veyr simply solution if they don't want any accusations about unfair advantages is to simply not allow gamesworks to run on AMD hardware. I don't think that is a god solution, but it is what will happen if AMD keep making PR stunts and working up a fanboy frenzy over it.

I guess if Nvidia did do that many devs would then find alternatives rather than alienate half their customer base.

Possibly, possibly not. If AMD provides a solution to the developer for AMD users and Nvidia provides a solution for Nvidia users then everyone benefits.


Nvidia did try that with the initial physx stuff but had to release physx for cpu after devs stuck with Havok due to its universal support.

PhysX is still widely used so I'm not sure that 100% of devs would ignore Gamesworks. You are also wrong, PhysX for CPU has always existed since the very begging, it was what AMD cards fell back to was always meant as a standalone physics library
 
Well..........That escalated quickly! Were are the mods when you need them?

They don't give a damn - this is why most likely of the AMD and Nvidia threads devolve into stupid bickering about things which have been bickered to time memorial years ago. Same old tired arguments.

I was genuinely excited that there was a game which has both hair tech and has a benchmark demo,where we could compare both together, especially if the benchmark is updated.

At least we can see the pros and cons of each tech instead of jumping to conclusions.

I think at this point due to some this thread has been thrashed with bickering and should be closed.
 
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They have done it multiple times with multiple pieces of software. Locking ageia cards out, locking their own cards out from running physx with an AMD card present, locking out AA in Batman, the list goes on and on.

You are completely missing the point, no doubt on purpose. To be clear there are 2 points here:

1) Does Nvidia lock AMD out from providing their own gamesworks alternative. No, in all games developers are free to work alongside AMD. Nvida doesn't allow PhysX to work in an AMD powered system, true, but Nvidia doesn't lock AMD out form providing their own PhysX solution. A game developer is free to use PhysX for Nvidia users and Bullet for AMD users for example.

2) Yes, Nvidia don't allow PhysX to run on a Nvidia GPU when the main system GPU is AMD. I have repeatedly said that this is very weak from Nvidia and I certainly don't defend that decision. I think it hurts them more than helps. But this has nothing to do with point 1.

Nothing you said was a con to open source, and nothing you said was a pro for closed source changes if the code is open source.
The dev can still used the provided unchanged code. YOu entirely miss the point over and over.
yes it was, you entirely miss the point again and again, your post reaks of typical AMD BS. yes, a dev can still use the unchanged unimproved un-optimized old code that doesn't have any of the improvements. That is not an advantage, that is a disadvantage.





Nonsense, complete and utter nonsense. Yes, the dev can optimise for gameworks for Nvidia cards because Nvidia can tell them how to optimise.
The entire point of gamesworks is the developer doesn't have to spend time optimizing. As usual you are completely missing the entire point.

YOu can't easily or fully optimise without EITHER access to the sourcecode to work out how to optimise yourself OR someone with access telling you exactly how to optimise for it.


You can't FULLY optimize, but you ca do a lot of optimization without source code or input. nearly all the optimizations Nvidia and AMD do in drivers to support games is done without any source code at all. They sure might be able to do better with source code, but it isn't needed to make a lot of optimizations.I know, because i do this professionally with other closed source libraries. Its like you might not have access to the MSQL source code or windows API, but you sure has heck can optimize your code around the black box.

More to the point, Nvidia can optimise on their end because it's their code in the first place. You call people disingenuous then claim devs can't optimise for Nvidia in gameworks.

Agreed that NVidia can optimize the code, that is the entire point of Gamesworks so Nvidia can continuously optimize the code and support new hardware rather than relying on the developer to release a new game patch. Well done on completely missing the point again.

The most important thing about open source code is that everyone can see what the code is.
Bravo.

IF you were a coder(which you don't appear to be from what I know) you'd know there are many algorithms to achieve the same result.

I am the lead developer with 20 years experience developing state of the art machine learning and numerical optimization methods for big data, earning the 6 figure salary that goes along with that kind of experience. I work extensively with both closed and open source libraries.

With open source code you can verify that everyone is running the same code(relatively speaking), with closed source you have no idea what is being run.
And people using closed source libraries don't care at all, they want a solution that works. Do people care when they develop for windows that windows is closed source, do people care that they develop for DX when DX is closed source? I really wonder how much programming experience you actually have? Do you develop exclusively against Linux because you have to know the source code of every library you are using, or are you happy to program against closed-source windows kernels? I can tel you I don't touch windows with a barge pole but I certainly don't fill my time browsing Linux kernel code, its irrelevant.

It's exceptionally easy to have a path for Nvidia and a path for AMD that is slower and places more processing and thus slower performance. With TressFX Nvidia can look through the code and check for code that would harm them, there may be code in there that simply due to a different architecture is very bad for one side and good for the other. Again with TressFX there is nothing stopping Nvidia finding any such code and implementing a fix in driver as well as talking with the dev and implementing a fix in the game code as the devs aren't prevented from changing the TressFX code in such a way.

And AMD can do the same with Nvidia closed source gamewsworks because AMD writes the DX drivers and know exactly what DX API calls are being made - that is the fundamentals of how AMD and Nvidia optimize drivers for closed source games without ever contacting the developer. And that is exactly why AMD kicked up a fuss about Hairworks because they knew the tessellation factor.

You talk about Witcher 3 and AMD implementing a tessellation limit or the game needing to implement it. Did it ever occur to you that Nvidia do this automatically in their driver without telling anyone? Most importantly there are only two options, they have code that will use tessellation that will hurt performance without a single pixel of IQ improvement... in which case they are incompetent and gameworks isn't that good. The only other possibility is they enable a default ultra high mode and have the same tessellation driver limit AMD have as an option in their driver, but make it a hidden option. In other words they enable high tessellation to hurt AMD performance on purpose, don't tell devs to optimise it then limit it in drivers giving an unfair advantage.


I ahve no idea what this wall of text is trying to state but here are a couple of facts:
1) Until the FuryX AMD's tessellation performance was terrible.
2) Nvidia certainly would have optimized performance and visual quality against Nvidia GPUs with little interest in doing the same for AMD.
3) Does this put AMD at a disadvantageous, possibly, but that doesn't mean nvidia are purposely malicious. The solution is for AMD to provide equal support to the developer in providing their own solution that helps AMD users the most, that way everybody wins.

Again the advantage of open source is you can confirm for a fact these problems aren't happening. With closed source Gameworks you can't.
the developers know that before they ever sign on to gamesworks licensing. Again, you miss the whole point of gamesworks is the developer doesn't have to worry about optimization.


You also seem to be going on about Open Source TressFX as if it has always been that way - TressFX until recently was closed source just like gamesworks.

In case you go back to talking about various licenses for allowing source code access, again the facts are very clear. They did not have an option for this originally, they only started to offer one AFTER public attention and multiple dodgy gameworks games. They refused to state the cost, if it was a fair and reasonable cost why refuse to disclose it, if it's obscenely high then it's an excuse to say you offer such a license while knowing no one would ever purchase it... in effect meaning they don't offer such a license.


You are making assumptions that the source code license has an additional cost, it almost certainly doesn't. The source code has additional requirements of privacy and non-disclosure that must be adhered t and it puts more burden on the developer to be secure with their code. Nvidia doesn't want AMD copying IP from NVidia's source code, or the game developers for that matter. If a game developer gets the source code they have to ensure AMD does not accidentally get access to the code when working with AMD. Moreover, if the developer sees the source code and gets lots of good ideas in the next project they could copy a lot of those ideas or code samples to replicate a gamesworks effect without license anything form Nvidia. this is why the source code license has a load more legal requirements and it is just much easier for a developer to treat it as a black box and do away with these complications.


Yet again it also misses the point of GW. NVidia doesn't want the developer to spend time making changes that they keep internally, Nvidia want to make the changes for the developer and keep intellectual property over those improvements which Nvidia can incorporate and give to other developers, increasing the value-add of their product offering.

I can't name a developer that has brought the source code license.
See above.

Lastly, how many Gameworks games have had huge problems with optimisation in general. Unrealistic smoke in, most of the games they implement gameworks smoke, completely overdone and unrealistic + crap performance, what a great feature.

And all of these games sucked regardless of gamesworks, the performance issues in games like batman had nothing to do with the smoke effect and the like, again, that is just more blatant AMD fanboyism. Nvidia are also not at all responsible for how the effects are used, if a developer applies far to much smoke or uses fur/hair in a weird way that is a design design form the developer, GW is massively controllable.

And even if gamesworks did suck, that is irrelevant to the discussion that NVidia does not lock AMD out of providing their own solutions to developers. We clearly see this in games like GTAV where both AMD and Nvidia technologies exist in harmony
 
Finally, a response that shows what you ultimately want deep down. I guess if Nvidia did do that many devs would then find alternatives rather than alienate half their customer base.

Nvidia did try that with the initial physx stuff but had to release physx for cpu after devs stuck with Havok due to its universal support.

PhysX always had some features that ran on the CPU and weren't locked out before or after nVidia. In City of Heroes (when PhysX was Ageia) all the debris bouncing around, etc. was done on CPU PhysX and you used to be able to enable a high level PhysX option that would give ludicrous numbers of particles to the point inside maps would end up carpeted in ejected shell casings rolling around the floor as well as an even higher level that required the PPU. Sadly they never did PhysX justice in that game though mostly limiting it to particle effects.
 
They don't give a damn - this is why most likely of the AMD and Nvidia threads devolve into stupid bickering about things which have been bickered to time memorial years ago. Same old tired arguments.

I was genuinely excited that there was a game which has both hair tech and has a benchmark demo,where we could compare both together, especially if the benchmark is updated.

At least we can see the pros and cons of each tech instead of jumping to conclusions.

I think at this point due to some this thread has been thrashed with bickering and should be closed.

Cat, is it even coming to Europe? I read a couple of news items last night that said only Asia and America were getting/playing it?
 
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