Medicine, Ethics and what the future holds.

nashathedog · 20 Jan 2016 at 05:57

I got mailed this news item today which got me thinking about how far we as a civilization will progress and what standards we'll hold ourself too as we do.
The article is about head transplanting and included info on recent experiments conducted as warm ups if you will to the big one, Transplanting the human head. One test was on a mouse who's spinal cord was cut then re-attached and one was on a monkey where they reattached the head apart from the spinal cord to prove head removal can be done without causing brain damage.

Have a read then tell us your thoughts.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...arried-out-on-monkey-claims-maverick-surgeon/

There are images some people may find disturbing. :eek:

Sliver · 20 Jan 2016 at 06:08

This came up on these forums last year I remember and there was an issue regarding reattachment of the spinal chord only producing 'partial' recovery of nerve function. I see this has not been resolved yet.

Canavero says Kim’s work shows that the spinal cord can re-fuse if it is cut cleanly in the presence of polyethylene glycol (PEG), a chemical that preserves nerve cell membranes. “These experiments prove once and for all that simply using PEG, you can see partial recovery

This seems a damning indictment for starters. His research should be peer reviewed.

The fact that Canavero has gone public with the latest results before the papers are published has raised eyebrows. “It’s science through public relations,” says Arthur Caplan, a bioethicist at New York University School of Medicine. “When it gets published in a peer-reviewed journal I’ll be interested. I think the rest of it is BS.”

Personally, I think it's early days and premature to be making any claims before a paper is published and peer reviewed. However, it does show promise.

nashathedog · 20 Jan 2016 at 06:36

Sliver said:
This came up on these forums last year I remember and there was an issue regarding reattachment of the spinal chord only producing 'partial' recovery of nerve function. I see this has not been resolved yet.

Canavero says Kim’s work shows that the spinal cord can re-fuse if it is cut cleanly in the presence of polyethylene glycol (PEG), a chemical that preserves nerve cell membranes. “These experiments prove once and for all that simply using PEG, you can see partial recovery

This got me thinking about the people that have opted to be cryogenically preserved in the hope of being revived and having whatever ailment afflicted them cured, many of those people chose to have just there head saved in the belief it will one day be transplanted onto a new body, Was PEG used or are they doomed to be left until no-one remembers at which point they'll be quietly disposed off?

This seems a damning indictment for starters. His research should be peer reviewed.

Certainly, It gives false hope.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/two-year-old-becomes-youngest-person-be-cryogenically-frozen-1524076
Having said that maybe the service they're really providing is in giving those left behind a way to ease the pain, As the article above shows it can give people hope that makes dealing with there loss easier for them.

Personally, I think it's early days and premature to be making any claims before a paper is published and peer reviewed. However, it does show promise.

Jumping the gun is nothing new, I mean how long ago did they start freezing people, In the 60's?

Terminal_Boy · 20 Jan 2016 at 06:59

In before medical thread banz...

nashathedog · 20 Jan 2016 at 07:23

Terminal_Boy said:
In before medical thread banz...

What does this mean exactly?

Tefal · 20 Jan 2016 at 07:26

nashathedog said:
This got me thinking about the people that have opted to be cryogenically preserved in the hope of being revived and having whatever ailment afflicted them cured, many of those people chose to have just there head saved in the belief it will one day be transplanted onto a new body, Was PEG used or are they doomed to be left until no-one remembers at which point they'll be quietly disposed off?

Certainly, It gives false hope.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/two-year-old-becomes-youngest-person-be-cryogenically-frozen-1524076
Having said that maybe the service they're really providing is in giving those left behind a way to ease the pain, As the article above shows it can give people hope that makes dealing with there loss easier for them.

Jumping the gun is nothing new, I mean how long ago did they start freezing people, In the 60's?

freezing, though causes your cells to be destroyed by ice crystals.

they;re dead for good, just frozen and preserved.

these transplants are live.

nashathedog · 20 Jan 2016 at 08:05

Tefal said:
freezing, though causes your cells to be destroyed by ice crystals.

they;re dead for good, just frozen and preserved.

these transplants are live.

From what I've read in the past cryogenic's does it in a way that avoids the crystallisation associated with freezing and preserves them undamaged (theoretically).
Even though it's a different topic future reanimation would include the need to perform head transplantation.
I've long believed that the cryogenic techniques used are more than likely flawed meaning the early adopters are lost causes but as we progress so will how it's done and eventually it will be a viable option and seeing as many people opt for just the head to be preserved they would all need this procedure at some point.

anything I don't mind · 20 Jan 2016 at 08:43

They said heart transplant wasn't possible as well. I can't see them not figuring it out. The next big thing is dna manipulation of the human embryo. That is going to be big this century. No more sick humans at birth, well if you have money. As probably going to be expensive and doubt nhs would offer it as they would see it as cosmetic, well if it reduced costs they might be up for it.

Orionaut · 20 Jan 2016 at 09:38

Morals and Ethics are merely the costume jewellery of civilisation. Its just fashion!

What is in one year is out the next!

FoxEye · 20 Jan 2016 at 09:40

I'm looking forward to my cat girls...

FortuitousFluke · 20 Jan 2016 at 09:44

FoxEye said:
I'm looking forward to my cat girls...

You'll have to fight off the gorilla men first. I'm not just talking about those ridiculous man mountains you see preening themselves in the local treadmill emporium either.

adolf hamster · 20 Jan 2016 at 10:59

The real ethics issue here, is what do they plan on doing once the science is perfected and we can perform a successful head transferr.

Considering the rarity of finding a healthy donor who is brain dead or about to die from something that does not effect the body, is it really worth taking an entire body's worth of organs to save the head of one man as opposed to carving it up and performing multiple "regular" transplants of the heart, kidneys, lungs etc.

Given that the availability of organs for regular transplants is slim pickings even today, i cant see how we could justify saving one man when we could save several with one donor.

The only way around this would be the potential for re-growth of organs through stem cells, which could well be the real big breakthrough in medical science. My own opinion is this is literal miracle working that we can literally restore sight to the blind, make paralysed men walk again and grow a living human heart in a jar.

Of course if regenerative medicine takes off, one might argue the need for a head transplant at all given we'd like be able to fix most issues with the body.

dowie · 20 Jan 2016 at 11:15

adolf hamster said:
The real ethics issue here, is what do they plan on doing once the science is perfected and we can perform a successful head transferr.

Considering the rarity of finding a healthy donor who is brain dead or about to die from something that does not effect the body, is it really worth taking an entire body's worth of organs to save the head of one man as opposed to carving it up and performing multiple "regular" transplants of the heart, kidneys, lungs etc.

perhaps some country might legalise it and the market for those bodies (especially the younger ones) will become rather lucrative... a few aging billionaires get head transplants and the families of the donors get taken care of financially

maybe in the gulf states they get some cleric to approve it and use the bodies of people sentenced to have their head chopped off anyway

FortuitousFluke · 20 Jan 2016 at 11:35

dowie said:
perhaps some country might legalise it and the market for those bodies (especially the younger ones) will become rather lucrative... a few aging billionaires get head transplants and the families of the donors get taken care of financially

maybe in the gulf states they get some cleric to approve it and use the bodies of people sentenced to have their head chopped off anyway

As ridiculous as this sounds, if there's a black market for organs then why not? Bit disturbing really, couple this with some kind of breakthrough in halting the degeneration of brain tissue and you're on the way to immortality.

Rupert Murdoch's head on the body of an 18 year old, toned Philipino lad.....terrifying.

StriderX · 20 Jan 2016 at 11:41

Don't see why there'd be a market for that, the head is still aging far beyond the body and will fail eventually.

Also theres likely a fatigue issue, the mind being rather aged is not going to work well with a body with a much higher metabolism, id imagine the brain would just collapse.

nashathedog · 20 Jan 2016 at 12:58

dowie said:
perhaps some country might legalise it and the market for those bodies (especially the younger ones) will become rather lucrative... a few aging billionaires get head transplants and the families of the donors get taken care of financially

maybe in the gulf states they get some cleric to approve it and use the bodies of people sentenced to have their head chopped off anyway

It certainly would provide a feasible option regarding death sentence prisoners all over the world.

nashathedog · 20 Jan 2016 at 13:04

StriderX said:
Don't see why there'd be a market for that, the head is still aging far beyond the body and will fail eventually.

Also theres likely a fatigue issue, the mind being rather aged is not going to work well with a body with a much higher metabolism, id imagine the brain would just collapse.

I read somewhere that the brain does not age in the way the body does. Mind you I read that a long time ago and nowadays we have been afflicted with degenerative mental illnesses that were practically unheard of generations ago due to the average life span being that much shorter. Maybe some minds are prone to it and some aren't at the moment we just don't know. It's a new realm that we will learn about through experience.

SPG · 20 Jan 2016 at 13:04

I am all for it, there will come a time when it is available for everyone and maybe then we can control our population. For me there is no ethical question in medical advancement apart from making it available for all.

Besides wandering around the planet looking like Stavros would be great fun.

nashathedog · 20 Jan 2016 at 13:09

FortuitousFluke said:
As ridiculous as this sounds, if there's a black market for organs then why not? Bit disturbing really, couple this with some kind of breakthrough in halting the degeneration of brain tissue and you're on the way to immortality.

Rupert Murdoch's head on the body of an 18 year old, toned Philipino lad.....terrifying.

The possibilities and what can be achieved are virtually limitless, Humanity will only be held back by our imaginations. The future will be a very strange place to us.

nashathedog · 20 Jan 2016 at 13:10

SPG said:
I am all for it, there will come a time when it is available for everyone and maybe then we can control our population. For me there is no ethical question in medical advancement apart from making it available for all.

Besides wandering around the planet looking like Stavros would be great fun.

It's a shame I won't be around for the really good stuff

A man born before his time...