Poll: Doctors strike tomorrow, do you support it?

[Minstadave]

What you mean is the new system doesn't put more money in doctors pockets like the old one does....

This is totally relative isn't it? Did the old system give excessive pay to doctors? The new system cuts pay.

You like nice emotive phrases suggesting were all fat cats grabbing cash whereas on the other hand we're just fighting a paycut and change in our working conditions legally.

 

[Squink]

Except Doctors are in demand all over the world, and mostly get paid a lot better than in the UK.
I have friends who are sucking it up just now, but if the contracts are enforced as the government plans, they are off to Canada and Australia.

Let them go. The NHS can't be held to ransom by union pay demands. Next time they'll want more and the time after that.

And if conditions are so much better everywhere else in the world, how come so many doctors, consultants etc that I've seen are clearly not native English speakers? Why didn't they go to Canada or Australia if the conditions there are so much better for doctors?

 

[Dolph]

This is totally relative isn't it? Did the old system give excessive pay to doctors? The new system cuts pay.

You like nice emotive phrases suggesting were all fat cats grabbing cash whereas on the other hand we're just fighting a paycut and change in our working conditions legally.

I have no problem with the new system being cost neutral overall, but that doesn't mean it would be cost neutral on an individual basis.

Does anyone have the before and after figures for the total cost of employing junior doctors? I've looked but can't find them.

 

[Minstadave]

Let them go. The NHS can't be held to ransom by union pay demands. Next time they'll want more and the time after that.

And if conditions are so much better everywhere else in the world, how come so many doctors, consultants etc that I've seen are clearly not native English speakers? Why didn't they go to Canada or Australia if the conditions there are so much better for doctors?

Let's be clear, doctors have never demanded more pay, this is a government driven paycut and working conditions attack. The BMA even agreed to a cost neutral solution that increased weekend staffing but Hunt vetoed it - he had to get Saturday down to normal pay come hell or high water. I can only imagine this is so it can be forced on the NHS wide staff base.

I don't remember any one thinking hospital doctors pay particularly remarkable before this strike - but then the Government went "Lols we need some 7 day working - have a paycut" and suddenly were all money grabbing fat cats.

As NHS doctors we have a monopoly employer. We can go overseas but that isn't an option to everyone. Many of us love the NHS and what it stands for.

 

[Minstadave]

I have no problem with the new system being cost neutral overall, but that doesn't mean it would be cost neutral on an individual basis.

Does anyone have the before and after figures for the total cost of employing junior doctors? I've looked but can't find them.

The Government don't appear to.

 

[Freefaller]

Doctors like overtime. Doctors make the majority of their money from overtime.
New contract won't allow them to garner the same overtime, and their maximum working hours are drastically reduced.
Also, their hours for basic pay are increased and now include saturdays up until 2100(?)
Can you imagine working a 5 day week and then a Saturday and still only take home basic pay? I can, and it sucks balls.

Their basic pay rises a bit, but their OT drops a lot.

They are already well paid though - and so what about working on saturday or sunday? I've done it before - I had 2 days off during the week or TOIL. Really wasn't an issue. And I was paid a lot less than a doctor at the time (this was a good 10 years ago).

I don't see how overtime is a right though? I don't get paid overtime, but then I'm in an industry that doesn't offer it - if you're going to become a doctor you have to realise that you will be sometimes be working long tough hours surely? That said if you had OT in your contract and they are removing it then of course I can see why they are upset - but we've all been in situations where our jobs were screwed over by changes of contract.

I'm still undecided on whether I support this strike or not. I of course want people to receive pay commensurate to their position/skills/time but at the same time I don't think people should get paid over the odds either.

I do support their right to challenge their contracts being changed, but I find they are undermining themselves with some of their arguments. I'm still on the fence for now.

 

[Dolph]

Let them go. The NHS can't be held to ransom by union pay demands. Next time they'll want more and the time after that.

And if conditions are so much better everywhere else in the world, how come so many doctors, consultants etc that I've seen are clearly not native English speakers? Why didn't they go to Canada or Australia if the conditions there are so much better for doctors?

This is the other point. The nhs, as a publicly run entity, must be in the control of the government, not the union. Realistically, the government cannot afford to back down this time as labour did over the gp contracts, they owe it to taxpayers and patients to ensure that the system is accountable to the voter, not the trade unions.

 

[One More Solo]

Personally, I don't see an issue in it being about pay although I also think the protection being removed from unusual shift patterns is a big concern.

The whole thing just highlights how underpaid the public sector is in general. I was always wrongly jealous of my med student mates at uni, thinking once they graduated they would get a guaranteed well paid job. As it is, you can bumble through any old degree for 3 years, get a 2:1 and end up getting an easy grad job that pays £5k more from the start with significantly better working conditions.

I also find it a bit rich in this thread when there are people probably getting paid 50% more than their public sector counterparts for an equivalent job, and the worst they have to worry about is a server going down at the weekend.

£22k as a highly skilled professional to work 60 hours a week, alternating days/nights with pressure from patients/management/the public, no thanks. There are no private sector jobs like that.

 

[Dolph]

Let's be clear, doctors have never demanded more pay, this is a government driven paycut and working conditions attack. The BMA even agreed to a cost neutral solution that increased weekend staffing but Hunt vetoed it - he had to get Saturday down to normal pay come hell or high water. I can only imagine this is so it can be forced on the NHS wide staff base.

I don't remember any one thinking hospital doctors pay particularly remarkable before this strike - but then the Government went "Lols we need some 7 day working - have a paycut" and suddenly were all money grabbing fat cats.

Do you understand what premium pay does to scheduling practices? It reduces staff scheduling because it is beneficial from a budget point of view, Saturday is a normal working day for most of the population, and they expect the same from the nhs.

 

[Minstadave]

This is the other point. The nhs, as a publicly run entity, must be in the control of the government, not the union. Realistically, the government cannot afford to back down this time as labour did over the gp contracts, they owe it to taxpayers and patients to ensure that the system is accountable to the voter, not the trade unions.

They will back down though, it's just a matter of time, they don't have the balance of power in this game. I happened in NZ and it'll happen in the UK.

 

[Dolph]

Personally, I don't see an issue in it being about pay although I also think the protection being removed from unusual shift patterns is a big concern.

The whole thing just highlights how underpaid the public sector is in general. I was always wrongly jealous of my med student mates at uni, thinking once they graduated they would get a guaranteed well paid job. As it is, you can bumble through any old degree for 3 years, get a 2:1 and end up getting an easy grad job that pays £5k more from the start with significantly better working conditions.

I also find it a bit rich in this thread when there are people probably getting paid 50% more than their public sector counterparts for an equivalent job, and the worst they have to worry about is a server going down at the weekend.

£22k as a highly skilled professional to work 60 hours a week, alternating days/nights with pressure from patients/management/the public, no thanks. There are no private sector jobs like that.

But it isn't £22k, it's £36k in the average foundation doctors pocket.

 

[Freakbro]

£22k as a highly skilled professional to work 60 hours a week, alternating days/nights with pressure from patients/management/the public, no thanks. There are no private sector jobs like that.

Seeing the state of the FY1's that rotate through my local hospital, I wouldn't describe them as 'highly skilled professionals' ....not yet anyway. Which is why they are still in training.

 

[Dolph]

They will back down though, it's just a matter of time, they don't have the balance of power in this game. I happened in NZ and it'll happen in the UK.

We'll see.

 

[Minstadave]

Do you understand what premium pay does to scheduling practices? It reduces staff scheduling because it is beneficial from a budget point of view, Saturday is a normal working day for most of the population, and they expect the same from the nhs.

The new contract still has a premium for Saturday pay over a certain number a month. So rather than a fixed rate for Saturday's that was the old system you can have two Drs working a Saturday for different pay.

Saturday is not a normal working day - can I send my child to nursery on a Saturday? Not in any nursery I can find nearby, so then it's nanny/childminder which I doubt is going to cheap.

 

[mysticsniper]

If the nurses were going on strike, then yes I would support them as they are treated like *****

Doctors, on the other hand are up their own ***** The ones I know are always late for appointments because of the private they do, while still being paying by the NHS.

So no I don't support the strike.

 

[Freakbro]

Saturday is not a normal working day - can I send my child to nursery on a Saturday? Not in any nursery I can find.

You can get a child minder though

 

[wordy]

No, but if you are entering a job that under it's normal operation is 24/7, then what's different about being scheduled to work on a Sat or Sun? And getting a Tue/Wed or Mon/Thur off?

It's a bit of an archaic tradition in the modern world that Sat & Sun are still seemed as sacrosanct, especially as I say, in a service that is required 24/7

(Not sure why your quote had someone elses name on it!)

Why say it then?

In real terms their pay is being cut, which I'm very much against.

Corrected

 

[Lokai]

Why shouldn't doctors get paid more for working unsociable hours ? they should.

The level of care won't change with the new contracts, there will be the same number of doctors (as well as other front end staff) working weekends and nights. Its a government cost saving exercise, and as usual they are cutting costs in the wrong places.

If anything, moves like this will just result in less junior doctors.

As a side, the whole of the NHS needs looking at, my wife gets paid less per hour when working nights and weekends on call due to archaic contracts put in place with the trust years ago.

 

[Minstadave]

Seeing the state of the FY1's that rotate through my local hospital, I wouldn't describe them as 'highly skilled professionals' ....not yet anyway. Which is why they are still in training.

I'm still in training 8 years in to my career, I work in the highest level paediatric and neonatal care units and make decisions and do procedures that can save or take lives. Don't confuse being in training with not having responsibility. FY1s should appear green, they haven't a clue what they're doing but have a huge responsibility.

 

[Minstadave]

You can get a child minder though

Yup, I added that - it'll cost me more than nursery. So I'm now out of pocket and paid less.