I'm all for electric cars but....
- Thread starter swain90
- Start date
While BEV vs HFCV is a fun debate, the truth is we'll need both due to each technology's inherent drawbacks. BEVs are useless for freight, haulage, agriculture, flight, and for those who like to travel long distances without stopping, or where poor infrastructure necessitates a higher density fuel (large rural areas - Canada, Austin Outback etc). On the flipside, HFCVs will be more expensive to buy, more expensive to fuel and are considerably less efficient:
Running a HFCV in place of a BEV, where a BEV meets the user's needs, simply makes no sense.
@Satchef1. Please could you explain your diagram to me. It lists an efficiency of 90% for transmission of power via grid transmission. Fine, not checked that but the principle is clear. Send 100 Joules, get 90 Joules at the other end. Send 200 Joules, get 180 Joules back. Everyone here gets that.
But then you list a "Transport / Transfer" of 85% for hydrogen. How does that work? I transport a 40l canister of compressed hydrogen in the back of my car and that's "85% transport efficiency?" I transport 400l of hydrogen canisters in a van and that's still "85% transport efficiency"? I sent a tanker truck containing thousands of litres of compressed hydrogen and that's "85% transport efficiency". Something is off here. What do you mean by this chart?
Also, why does it not compare Like for Like? It lists a battery powered vehicle with regenerative braking for the battery one, but for the HFC vehicle calculates efficiency solely based on energy input?
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 3 Jun 2005
- Posts
- 3,348
- Location
- The South
With misquoting skills like that, you should become a politician Skeeter
Either way, i'm happy to give it a chance - we've come along way in the last eight years since Tesla (with the Roadster) gave battery EV's a kick up the rear and i suspect we'll advance just as much in the next eight.
Last edited:
Sorry I have to reply to this, yes of course I am only expressing my opinion !
I absolutely do not know for sure what will happen but I can read and I have a reasonable knowledge of the subject.
At no point have I said I do not believe other technologies including fuel cells will become prevalent. I simply think battery EV cars are almost a here and now and I believe will start to sell in large numbers in the next few years.
I also do not believe we will see the end of ICE I simply think that will become the expensive option.
And one last thing you mention technology leaps in reference to my 50 miles of charging in 5 mins.
A tesla supercharger will do the above in 6 mins to a 10% empty battery and that is today not some unspecified point in the future.
https://transportevolved.com/2014/07/03/fast-tesla-supercharger-charge-electric-tesla-model-s-fast/
Solar is in its infancy really IIRC currently a decent size home setup could provide about 1/3rd the power required for around half of the year* - with the right focus on local pooling of renewable generation (not just solar) to supplement the larger grid (rather than per household generation), storage technologies like powerwall, etc.) it would be possible to atleast massively reduce the requirement on the larger grid and remote (often non-renewable) generation. With advances in technology on both sides I can't see why it wouldn't be possible to largely sustain home charging in the medium term future.
* Panels with twice the efficiency as those used in a typical home installation currently are just about becoming feasible for home use and there are more improvements on the way/slowly becoming cost effective for non-specialist use.
That's the big question, isn't it? Tolls/pay per mile is the most likely answer. Increasing the tax on domestic electricity is a dangerous move politically. Either that or income tax will rise.
What also seems likely is a rise in fuel duty as electric cars catch on. It wouldn't surprise me to see petrol/Diesel pass £2/litre within 20 years in an attempt to encourage people over to cleaner technologies.
What also seems likely is a rise in fuel duty as electric cars catch on. It wouldn't surprise me to see petrol/Diesel pass £2/litre within 20 years in an attempt to encourage people over to cleaner technologies.
What they've wanted to do for ages. Gps pay per mile/time of day.
O yay.
Well I guess it knocks out the use of ANPR and speed cameras.
Actually I wonder if smart meters will play a role. Wouldn't be too hard to levy a charge on electricity used by the charger.
Satchef - any explanation on that diagram you posted?
Not sure why you're being so aggressive. I am pro hydrogen, as well as pro electric. I believe both will have their places in a future automotive world.
That said, on to the use of the word "significantly". I stand by that. That report backs up my assertion of significantly less efficiency than electricity. Ignoring for a second the fact their gas>electricity efficiencies are very low* their argument all hinges on the weight of batteries. An interesting and useful point, but still irrelevant when my comment was about the efficiency of hydrogen in general. That report backs up what I said. I will concede however that specifically for cars it's efficiency may be slightly greater overall (when weight is included) than pure electric with current battery power.
That said that report was in 2009, and there is already one figure that is around 25% lower than a realistic comparison. A few other figures like that and it could change the entire game. Having written reports like that, and had them rejigged by managers to make them appear more positive (but not "wrong" per se) I have to view those figures with some scepticism - you use the higher efficiency numbers for your tech and lower efficiency for competitors, small changes can make a massive difference.
Not sure what you mean here by "producing at the power source". Do you mean having a methane/water store in the car and separating the hydrogen atoms in the car? Where do you store the energy to separate the hydrogen in the first place. Thats especially important as we have already discussed that the efficiencies of hydrogen over electric completely about the weight in the car.
That isn't necessarily a negative, and not really what you're suggesting. Don't like the business model? Pay per use at an independent recharging location or plug in at home.
In summary, as I said in one of my earlier posts. I think in 30 years we will have two techs selling in road vehicles. Electric battery for smaller cars and shorter range vehicles - easy to use and can be charged anywhere for very cheap. Basically most small and commuter cars for people that want to get from A-B, where that is generally less than 100 miles. Then we'll have lorries, longer range vehicles and other more specialist vehicles (like pickups) which will probably run on hydrogen, because of the extra range carriable and the ability to refuel quicker and in less hospitable locations. I'm guessing for some crossover vehicles (like pickups) you'll probably have a choice between the electric model and the hydrogen model (like you do with Petrol and Diesel, and over here "flexfuel" - ethanol).
*The company I used to work for has a CCGT, with low efficiency - so low they want to change it. It's efficiency is about what they use in that report. Modern CCGT are in the 55-60% range, which makes a significant difference to their sums.
Last edited:
in answer to OP and it's probably been said by now being as it is pages long already (been busy 
) Once the batteries become uneconomic to use in a vehicle, they can be re-utilised as "power banks" to keep your house ticking over on minimal load while it's dark and your solar panels are not producing..
10+ years down the road beyond their useful life in that environment and then we will have better means ability and technology to recycle them almost completely with very little wastage.
) Once the batteries become uneconomic to use in a vehicle, they can be re-utilised as "power banks" to keep your house ticking over on minimal load while it's dark and your solar panels are not producing..10+ years down the road beyond their useful life in that environment and then we will have better means ability and technology to recycle them almost completely with very little wastage.
I'm at work at the moment. I'll do that later. For now, if you want some reading, the diagram was done by Professor Ulf Bossel of California University.
Government stats say 30m UK Income Tax payers.
Its probably not the best number (paying Income Tax doesn't mean you own a car, and you can own a car and not pay Income Tax), but there are just over 30m cars in the UK so if you go with "number of car owners" its still around 30m.
Quite surprising population is around 70 million iirc 40 million can't be self employed/retired/unemployed or underage surely.