Channel 4 - What British Muslims Really Think

NeilFawcett said:
Need to consider this point carefully I guess... Because basically - and correct me if I'm wrong here - a Muslim shoud consider (the act of) homosexuality as a punishable crime (& sin)?

If they do not, then they are failing the very core of their faith as the Quraan dictates as much?

Of course there's the debate within Islam of the exact punishment, but I believe there is the suggestion that Muhammad proscribed death was a suitable treatment for homosexuality, so if this is to be believed, it's not surprising Muslims get rather confused how to deal with this topic. I believe some Islamic cultures decide for example homosexuality does not deserve death, and reserve that for much more severe crimes like apostasy! :)
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There was an Islamic Caliphate who was openly homosexual (Al-Hakam II). I'm not convinced homosexuality is a massive issue that's stipulated in the Quran, but rather an issue of the modern day that some people are still clinging on to.
 
doofer said:
The only education needed is to explain all Religion is a man-made fictional fairy tale and you don't need any pretend sky pixie(s) to watch everything you do to make you a good person. Should take about half a day and then just educate them on important subjects that will actually help them with life.
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What is it with the fixation on "Sky Pixies" around here? That attitude just undermines anything intelligent you might otherwise say.
 
Tefal said:
why is pixie any less sensible than god, fairy, witch, demon, devil or balrog?>
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Because of its intent, an intelligent discussion needs at least a bit of respect.

I'm not religious, and I am finding myself to feel quite a bit of disdain for religion as times goes on, yet I will still lend basic respect to it and not try to undermine a person's beliefs by claiming that they believe in "sky pixies" or have "imaginary friends".

That behavior is the mark of people who can't hold intelligent discussion, or whose arguments are based off things they've learnt to regurgitate.
 
spoffle said:
Because of its intent, an intelligent discussion needs at least a bit of respect.

I'm not religious, and I am finding myself to feel quite a bit of disdain for religion as times goes on, yet I will still lend basic respect to it and not try to undermine a person's beliefs by claiming that they believe in "sky pixies" or have "imaginary friends".

That behavior is the mark of people who can't hold intelligent discussion, or whose arguments are based off things they've learnt to regurgitate.
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Respect is earned not given freely, as is ridicule. If Religions don't want to be ridiculed they should stop being so ridiculous.
 
doofer said:
Respect is earned not given freely, as is ridicule. If Religions don't want to be ridiculed they should stop being so ridiculous.
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Respect IS earnt, but your default stance shouldn't be that you give none unless it's been earnt. We're talking about other people. Just because they believe in something you don't doesn't mean they deserve disrespect until they earn your disrespect.
 
spoffle said:
Respect IS earnt, but your default stance shouldn't be that you give none unless it's been earnt. We're talking about other people. Just because they believe in something you don't doesn't mean they deserve disrespect until they earn your disrespect.
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Yes but what he 'believes' in doesn't lead to people getting attacked with machetes in the street.
 
n111ck said:
Yes but what he 'believes' in doesn't lead to people getting attacked with machetes in the street.
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People do things they want or are willing to do. You can't both believe religion is false, whilst also thinking "it" causes people to do such things and stay logically consistent.
 
spoffle said:
Respect IS earnt, but your default stance shouldn't be that you give none unless it's been earnt. We're talking about other people. Just because they believe in something you don't doesn't mean they deserve disrespect until they earn your disrespect.
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There are different levels of belief that I afford different levels of respect to.

I offer no respect to those whose beliefs are demonstrably wrong, such as young earth creationists.
Nor to those whose beliefs cause the lives of certain groups of people to be a living hell, such as those who say gay people are morally corrupt.
Nor to those whose beliefs are simply ludicrous in nature, such as those that believe a convicted con man dug up gold tablets containing the word of God in America - and then lost them.
Nor to those who use religion as an excuse for violence under any circumstance.


The thing is, most religions in their truest form fall under at least one of these categories.

"Progressives" or "moderates" simply chose to ignore the parts of their holy texts which they disagree with. In my view, if you're already throwing out parts of your religion that you find morally unacceptable, why not throw the whole thing out altogether? That, is guaranteed to earn my respect.
 
Judgeneo said:
"Progressives" or "moderates" simply chose to ignore the parts of their holy texts which they disagree with. In my view, if you're already throwing out parts of your religion that you find morally unacceptable, why not throw the whole thing out altogether? That, is guaranteed to earn my respect.
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Words have no meaning without interpretation. A literal, ultra-orthodox interpretation is no more valid that a progressive one.
 
Tefal said:
yeah it was used to raise an army

Christianity survived the same times without the mutilating people bits..
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On this particular point, Christianity or rather Jesus did not set up a state. Muhammad did and therefore the state had an army.
 
spoffle said:
There was an Islamic Caliphate who was openly homosexual (Al-Hakam II). I'm not convinced homosexuality is a massive issue that's stipulated in the Quran, but rather an issue of the modern day that some people are still clinging on to.
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That in itself doesn't mean or prove anything. Some Caliphs were accused of incest, doesn't mean anything though for what Islam condones.
 
Tefal said:
Well of course christians ignore leviticus, they aren't Jews. :confused:
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It's in the bible however, which was the point of the reply.

scorza said:
The Channel 4 programme we're discussing in this thread.
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1% is not an extreme view.

NeilFawcett said:
Fair comment... But three points:-
1) Rather than using the Old Testament (as evidence of Christianity's views on homosxuality) use the New Testament? It seems Christianity is a little more willing to revise its user manual :)
2) Actions speak louder that words. Let's look at how homosexuals (& indeed women) fair in Islamic cultures as a rule.
3) And this all seems to come down to the root issue that Islam just generally seems to take itself far too seriously, with the Quran being the self proclaimed "real deal", being the last testament, and actual words from God himself.

Yes, of course "moderate Muslims" pick and choose (thankfully) what they practice from the Quran. The problem is, if you take it literally as the word of God, you have a rather different and aggressive outlook (IMHO) on the the world, to a say an "extreme" Bhudist, Janist or Christian...
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I think the real issue is that there isn't major leadership in Islam, making extreme teachings easier. In Christianity generally the pope or Arch Bishop would overrule the clergy if they were proscribing certain views. There isn't an overarching body in Islam which means isolated Imams and groups like ISIS can proclaim their interpretation is "correct" and no "governing body" can tell them otherwise. Couple that with many islamic countries being in almost perpetual violence for the last generation (India vs Pakistan, Algeria, Iraq and Afghanistan - many started by external influences) and we have a situation we are in today. Isolated religious leaders preaching violence to those where violence has become almost normal due to their surroundings.

Then unfortunately some seemingly group all muslims into one and insist they are all "backwards" and violent (or even a significant majority). And you end up with a situation where people on both sides are insisting the others culture shouldn't exist and doesn't fit in todays world.

I think one of the issues is people conflate christianity with the "west". Western christianity is (generally) very modern in it's outlook and while the Bible hasn't actually been revised, interpretations have - to try and keep christianity relevant in the modern western world. On the other hand, as has already been mentioned, christianity in other areas of the world is no where near as liberal.

See what the responses are from african christians in Uganda and compare them to the average church goer in the UK - if you can find one, there aren't many devout christians around (there seems to be a mixup of "moderate" and devout" in this thread too*). Their responses to things like homosexuality and women will be very different.

Large numbers practicing Islam in the UK is still a very recent phenomenon, many are first generation immigrants coming from non wester conservative countries. This is why I mentioned earlier that a breakdown of age/nation of origin/immigration status (first generation/born in Britain etc) would be interesting to know - are those first generation muslims more likely to hold extreme views and be anti homosexuality etc..

*A devout christian will go to church weekly, pray and do all the other things a christian should do, a devout muslim will pray 5 times a day, not eat pork or drink, fast for a month etc.

A moderate christian/muslim would be someone that understands that parts of their holy book or faith don't fit with modern western society and conveniently ignore those bits.
 
Amp34 said:
1% is not an extreme view.
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23% of them want Sharia law. Even if it were just 1% - if you extract that to the official* Muslim population of the UK that's an army of 30,000 - a third of the size of the British army.

*we all know the official figures are bull scat.
 
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I imagine this is just like the benefits programmes where they focus narrowly on the most extreme cases for the shock value and to create uproar, so that people can't wait to go in to work the next day and seethe about it to every workmate, further increasing viewership. Ad infinitum.
 
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