Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (April Poll)

[scorza]

One the 2005 French referendum on the Lisbon Treaty:

If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'.

On a Greek rejection of the Euro bailout:

There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties

On people not a million miles away from this thread

We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.

 

[Mulder]

They obviously did a good job of ignoring it given there is no EU constitution and it didn't go ahead.

This is what terrifies me about this referendum - so many strong opinions from people who simply cannot be bothered to educate themselves before forming them. It doesn't take very long to find out things like 'Did the EU Constitution actually happen in the end', you know.

Others are easily swayed by often compelling arguments from people who simply cannot be bothered to understand what they are forming an opinion on. People will read the lists like that you've posted, believe you know what you are talking about and it allow it to influence them. Even though most of it is rubbish and easily debunked with about 5 minutes and Google.

It's why referendums generally suck. It's far better when we elect people to make decisions on our behalf - people who we can pay a salary to and make it their job to understand. If you want out of the EU the answer should be to elect a representative who shares your view.

The irony of your post made me chuckle.

Yeah, a quick google and a few minutes of proper research will tell you yes the EU constitution was voted against, but it effectively resurfaced as the Treaty of Lisbon. The format was changed to avoid referendums but the essense is the same.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...y-is-the-same-as-the-constitution-398286.html

http://www.europedia.moussis.eu/books/Book_2/2/2/5/?all=1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...aty-resurrected-defeated-EU-Constitution.html

http://www.eudemocrats.org/eud/uploads/downloads/e-Lissabon_til_nettet.pdf

 

[Mulder]

I started out as a complacent big business in voter but over the course of the campaign I've become a firm out voter, the democratic deficit will never be rectified, the corrupt banking will never be rectified and the desperate enlargement process will continue to bring in countries that are basically gangster states.

Good to have you on board

 

[stewski]

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...est-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet--WyMaFTE890x

Rupert Murdoch doesn't rule Europe the way he can Downing Street.

 

[StriderX]

A man that doesnt have long to live shouldnt present any significance to the vote.

 

[Danthus]

A man that doesnt have long to live shouldnt present any significance to the vote.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree?

 

[StriderX]

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree?

That is unknown, still pointless as frankly he has the same power over the UK regardless of our status in the EU.

So its just noticing the bear in the room for grandstanding.

 

[Mulder]

Snip

So if we do vote to leave, holding another vote in 6 months time is OK then? And if that's another leave, then another vote? Where's the point in that.

The Dutch, French, and Irish people rejected the EU Constitution in referendums, which the EU revamped and called the Lisbon treaty with only Ireland given a referendum on it. They pushed it through despite the obvious will of the people.

 

[stuman]

if we vote to leave, the pound will continue to lose value. it has been haemorrhaging since the announcement of the vote.

it will drop, and rip off Britain will get worse.

i'm still an in voter.

also, all of these people saying we should leave so we could control our borders...... you really think we will close the borders if we leave the EU?

 

[StriderX]

Nothing too extreme with the pound losing value, our goods become more competitive.

 

[Mulder]

Some people think prices in the UK may actually go down after Brexit.

http://www.cityam.com/235348/eu-mem...ons-you-need-to-make-the-numbers-net-positive

 

[stuman]

Nothing too extreme with the pound losing value, our goods become more competitive.

but we import pretty much all of our raw materials. thus anything we make will have to be sold at a higher price.

and it makes them more competitive to ROW not at home.

 

[Sankari]

So if we do vote to leave, holding another vote in 6 months time is OK then?

It is if you're given fresh options, like Denmark and Ireland were. They scored some major concessions. I don't see why the UK can't.

The Dutch, French, and Irish people rejected the EU Constitution in referendums, which the EU revamped and called the Lisbon treaty with only Ireland given a referendum on it.

False. The Lisbon treaty is not a revamped EU Constitution.

They pushed it through despite the obvious will of the people.

Evidence please.

Did any countries seek more opt-outs?
The Irish Republic and the UK currently have an opt-out from European policies concerning asylum, visas and immigration. Under the new treaty they have the right to opt in or out of any policies in the entire field of justice and home affairs.

Dublin also won guarantees that the treaty would not infringe on its sovereignty in the areas of taxation, family issues and state neutrality.

Denmark will continue with its existing opt-out from justice and home affairs, but has the right under the new treaty to opt for the pick-and-choose system.

Was the Irish Republic the only country to hold a referendum?
Yes. Most EU leaders argued that Lisbon merely amended earlier treaties and that there was therefore no need for a referendum.

That position was rejected by the Irish No camp and the opposition Conservative Party in Britain, as well as by many Eurosceptics across the EU.

The Irish Republic was obliged to hold a referendum because of an Irish Supreme Court ruling in 1987, saying that any major amendment to an EU treaty entails an amendment to the Irish constitution.

Before the second Irish referendum, Dublin won guarantees that Lisbon would not affect Irish sovereignty in key areas that the No camp had highlighted.

(Source).

 

[eldergeek]

I'm a bit on the fence as of today - Out of interest, how can the European courts enforce determination on the legality of the IPBill?

 

[Mulder]

It is if you're given fresh options, like Denmark and Ireland were. They scored some major concessions. I don't see why the UK can't.

So you expect another referendum? I wouldn't count on that, the last time we got one was 40 years ago. It's a bit risky if we do vote to stay then the EU continues to fall apart and we don't get another vote.

False. The Lisbon treaty is not a revamped EU Constitution.

It's basically the same document, with a few tweaks like the Irish got yes, but the main ethos is still there, as below.

Most European leaders acknowledge that the treaty preserves the main substance of the constitution.
If it contains the same substance, why is the Lisbon Treaty not a constitution?

It's not a constitution because that was voted against by the Dutch, Danish etc. They changed it to an amendment so they could push it through with only Ireland requiring a second referendum.

 

[dowie]

So if we do vote to leave, holding another vote in 6 months time is OK then?

Nope, it definitely isn't. If we vote leave then we ought to leave.

the other worrying issue for me is the further EU integration... sure we've got our assurances that it won't apply directly to us and that's great but if the rest of the EU integrates further (aside from maybe Denmark and one or two others) and pretty much ends up becoming a big European superstate within the EU then they'll have massively disproportionate influence on any areas we can't unilaterally veto. I mean the EU could literally evolve from 28 countries to UK + Denmark + 'Fourth Reich' D) and the Fourth Reich will dominate most things, have most of the EU parliament members, most of the commissioners, most of the EU civil servants... Whether we like it or not there is a strong push for further and further European integration and we might as well be outside the EU with a trade agreement if we're staying out of that

 

[Narj]

This weekend has been very interesting indeed regarding the opinions of friends.

I've adopted a position where I am doing my own research and don't believe I have any right to preach my own stance to anyone else.

Some things that are being mentioned by real people in real jobs are much more interesting than the drivel and counteractive scaremongering we're seeing in the media.

 

[eldergeek]

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/mediapolicyp...-uks-data-retention-investigative-powers-act/

So basically, whether we like it or not, the bill is going through?

 

[Trig]

Well looks like its gone from what it "could" cost us to what it "would" cost us, thankfully George Osbourne as invented some sort of crystal ball and can now tell us what the future holds..


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...k-families-£4300-a-year/ar-BBrSgzq?li=BBoPWjQ

 

[Klo]

Nope, it definitely isn't. If we vote leave then we ought to leave.

the other worrying issue for me is the further EU integration... sure we've got our assurances that it won't apply directly to us and that's great but if the rest of the EU integrates further (aside from maybe Denmark and one or two others) and pretty much ends up becoming a big European superstate within the EU then they'll have massively disproportionate influence on any areas we can't unilaterally veto. I mean the EU could literally evolve from 28 countries to UK + Denmark + 'Fourth Reich' D) and the Fourth Reich will dominate most things, have most of the EU parliament members, most of the commissioners, most of the EU civil servants... Whether we like it or not there is a strong push for further and further European integration and we might as well be outside the EU with a trade agreement if we're staying out of that

At least we have some say then. If we leave that could still happen and we have no say at all.