TTIP

[Mr Jack]

When it says quarter of a trillion dollars in US FDI stock, does that mean the UK has invested a quarter of a million in US businesses, or they've invested quarter of a million in ours?

You'd have to check the full report I linked, but I think it means US investment in the UK. And it's trillion not million, i.e. a million million.

 

[Mr Jack]

I'm inclined to agree, but if a post Brexit Conservative Government imposed it on us at least it would be our fault for electing them and we could defenestrate them at the next election. If the EU makes the decision for us that's it we're boned.

The EU doesn't "make the decision for us"; we're part of the EU. It's not some remote body we have no role in. Even then, TTIP cannot enter force without being ratified by every EU country.

 

[Muz333]

As to GMO itself, this is a tangent but for many people who have reservations about it, it's not about whether GMO has an immediate health impact on the consumer or not, it's about the fact that most GMOs are engineered for pesticide and herbicide resistance allowing vast increases in the amount of these used which run off into rivers and damage ecosystems; it's about companies being able to patent basic food staples and drive out through market abuse non-patented crops leading to monopolies on food production and seed selling; it's about the irreversibility of the introduction of radical changes to the environment that we can't undo. No - putting a gene from caterpillars into a cereal crop that poisons insects that eat it is NOT just a faster version of the plant breeding we've been doing for thousands of years. Finally there's the simple fact that GMOs are used as a patch for our own bad practices, such as Indian farmers being forced to concentrate on growing rice rather than the more balanced variety of crops they used to, meaning they get vitamin deficiencies. And then the same companies that brought about this situation try to present themselves as heroic for engineering a type of rice ("Golden Rice") that contains vitamin D.

Yet whenever GMOs are discussed, I'm immediately faced with people implying anyone against GMOs is an anti-science moron and repeat like zombies phrases like "GMOs haven't been shown to cause health problems".

Rant over.

At least if we don't buy GM foods then we get the satisfaction of knowing all those children in Honduras are getting sprayed with pesticides from planes above as they walk to school through the banana fields making them sick. We also get the satisfaction of knowing we are having these crops sprayed with excess pesticides and heavy metals which does affect the environment when we could instead use GM crops that prevent the need for this.

Yes, I work in synthetic biology and yes you could say I have a biased view of this. That said the above point is still true.

 

[PlacidCasual]

But we the electors of the UK can't replace the EU, if it makes a bad decision we'd be stuck with our bad decision to ratify even if we changed Governments unless we were lucky enough to persuade a qualified majority (I assume) of the rest of the EU it was a bad idea.
I know which position I would rather be in, you and I disagree I understand and accept this.

 

[Mr Jack]

At least if we don't buy GM foods then we get the satisfaction of knowing all those children in Honduras are getting sprayed with pesticides from planes above as they walk to school through the banana fields making them sick. We also get the satisfaction of knowing we are having these crops sprayed with excess pesticides and heavy metals which does affect the environment when we could instead use GM crops that prevent the need for this.

The problem with the GMO debate is that we're having it about the techniques used to create organisms rather than what we do with these abilities. This is seriously misguided.

The fact is that we've always genetically modified the organisms we eat - go and compare any plant in your supermarket to its wild ancestors if you don't believe me - just by cruder methodologies. It doesn't make any sense to reject newer tools just because they're more capable and allow us to manipulate crops more precisely.

But because the debate has canalised into pro- and anti- GMO the voices that should be critical of how organisms are being modified are instead being swamped out by voices critical of doing it at all, and instead of regulatory frameworks designed to consider and control the kind of modification being made we have frameworks designed to restrict how that modification is achieved.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

I'm inclined to agree, but if a post Brexit Conservative Government imposed it on us at least it would be our fault for electing them and we could defenestrate them at the next election. If the EU makes the decision for us that's it we're boned.

All it needs from the EU is one country to veto it. It must be a unanimous decision from all member states to enter it. They will not force it upon us.

 

[Destination]

Issue I see is that if we Brexit and miss TTIP, our idiot government will likely sign to the same thing anyway, or something which is actually worse for us, as someone will line their pockets.

TTIP is bad if it allows general American foods into our marketplace.
It is bad to give legal recourse to American companies where they lose money due to our governmental decisions.

TTIP is the one thing which might make me consider voting to leave the EU. Main issue is I don't trust our idiots not to do the same immediately after.

I cannot see the benefit in TTIP for the UK, at any level. Have any companies stated how much they are looking forward to it, and stated why?

 

[Dj_Jestar]

One of the stipulations of TTIP would be that companies will be permitted to sell their products until someone else proves they are unsafe. This, of course, will be refuted by some other studies funded by the manufacturers, many, many hours would be wasted in court and subsequent appeals, all the while said dangerous products would continue to be sold, and the price of things go up to pay for all the litigation.

It's not just the American foods thing, either, which does worry me too.

With our NHS being as tight on prices for pharmaceuticals as it is, we will invariably get sued to buggery by US companies under TTIP.

The NHS is famously the hardest on prices in medical supplies pretty much anywhere in the world. We constantly refuse to buy at the prices asked by companies that have a patent on medication and are maximising their profit with arguably unfair/unreasonably high prices. We would not have this with TTIP, and would have to pay for "lost profit."

 

[RaohNS]

TTIP explicitly includes exactly what the post you're replying to refers to - it gives businesses the right to sue countries for perceived loss of profits due to decisions a government makes. That's part of the point of it and one of the things that's being argued over is how such cases would be heard. Not whether or not such cases should exist - they're a required part of TTIP - but who should judge them.

While it could be said that the whole thing is a conspiracy since elected politicians aren't even allowed to see it, the general principles of it are quite open and businesses suing countries is one of them, as is removing as many protections as possible from employees, animals and the environment because those protections reduce profits. Which is "free trade and enterprise", of course, and what "fair practice" means depends on who is defining "fair".

I was being sarcastic as everything here said is pointed at as a conspiracy.

I think TTIP is going to cost millions of jobs. There are a few key elements of TTIP I and any rational minded person (no comments against me on that one folks) should be concerned about:
1) Corporations effectively articulated and penned it
2) Corporate Courts overrule law (plus are alleged to be secret)
3) No ability to challenge rulings
4) it is not just costs that can be claimed but projected costs. Example: Company a tenders a contract spending £50m and highlights that earnings are likely to be £500m... It can then sue for £500m for projected losses
5) if it is indeed a near million page document it is grossly unfair from the outset.

It will pit the higher paying economies against the low for the wrong reasons eg lowest paying economy makes the product/supplies service while it sells at inflated rates to the higher paying economies. In effect perpetuating the corporatist oligarchy we now live in.

Workers rights can also be usurped I am led to believe. While I haven't turned broadside to TTIP just yet from what can be gleaned its apparent there are serious dangers to this legislature which exceeds any jurisprudence.

 

[Roar87]

It's scary how many people aren't opposed to this and how many people feel being part of the EU is a good idea. We're all going to wake up as corporate slaves working 60 hour weeks to fund our health insurance

 

[Destination]

Out of interest, is there anyone here who thinks TTIP will be a great benefit to our nation, in or out of Europe?
If so, why?


Also, does anyone think our government if we Brexit wouldn't sign the same trash agreement? Or something worse, and get nice jobs on the board of US companies off the back of it.

Love to see a few polls.

 

[dowie]

Also, does anyone think our government if we Brexit wouldn't sign the same trash agreement? Or something worse, and get nice jobs on the board of US companies off the back of it.

if we vote for brexit we'll be back of the queue for US trade deals apparently so they'd not have the chance to sign up to such a thing any time soon

 

[RaohNS]

Out of interest, is there anyone here who thinks TTIP will be a great benefit to our nation, in or out of Europe?
If so, why?

Also, does anyone think our government if we Brexit wouldn't sign the same trash agreement? Or something worse, and get nice jobs on the board of US companies off the back of it.

Love to see a few polls.

1) only to the corporations with particular favour given to US based (but Cayman Isle registered). Profits at the expense of people

2) Possibly but people fighting this are hoping to get a referendum. Remember: Signing this document would be impossible given the sheer volume of it (purportedly 1million pages). By the same token you would not sign for something you hadn't fully read

3) the govt would do their best to get jobs here and there off the back of their former positions. Its crooked and corrupt. Cronyism at its finest.

4) would love to see a vote on TTIP

 

[Destination]

if we vote for brexit we'll be back of the queue for US trade deals apparently so they'd not have the chance to sign up to such a thing any time soon

Oddly sounds like a wonderful way of learning form the EUs mistakes, although, one fears the muppets would quickly forge ahead to try to garner something of their own, and make it even worse.

A one million page document seems incredible, and mad at the same time.

 

[h4rm0ny]

It's scary how many people aren't opposed to this and how many people feel being part of the EU is a good idea. We're all going to wake up as corporate slaves working 60 hour weeks to fund our health insurance

Weird combination of ideas there. If we weren't a member of the EU then our own government would have signed us up during the last coalition already. Cameron is all in favour of this and the Lib Dem position at the time was in favour of it. Though LibDems might be reversing their position now that they have no stake (due to having no seats!) and it becoming a PR issue.

It's the EU laws which generally stop people working 60 hours a week to fund your health insurance. (Well, except where the UK demanded an opt-out from the Working Time directive which curtailed the amount of hours you could work).

You have it precisely backwards in both cases. It's America where you work yourself to death for the sake of healthcare and America that Cameron (and previously Blair) would love to side with in such matters.

 

[dowie]

Oddly sounds like a wonderful way of learning form the EUs mistakes, although, one fears the muppets would quickly forge ahead to try to garner something of their own, and make it even worse.

well they can't do much unilaterally so at the moment there isn't too much to worry about, not really something you can rush per say: brexit = no TTIP for the foreseeable future, remain = TTIP if it isn't vetoed

 

[h4rm0ny]

brexit = no TTIP for the foreseeable future, remain = TTIP if it isn't vetoed

Except that it's looking more and more unlikely that the TTIP will pass in Europe. The momentum against it in the European countries, esp. Germany and France, is big now. Whereas we know our current government has been keen to sign it. So you can't really spin this as a TTIP = Europe thing. If we remain in, we're very likely not to be part of it. If we leave, we'll be signed up before you can blink and I have evidence to support that in the form of the main parties all being in favour of it.

 

[dowie]

no there is opposition to certain aspects of TTIP it would seem much more likely that it is merely changed a bit than scrapped

If we leave, we'll be signed up before you can blink and I have evidence to support that in the form of the main parties all being in favour of it.

what evidence? It is completely moot if the US isn't in any hurry to get such a deal done.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks

Barack Obama has warned that the UK would be at the “back of the queue” in any trade deal with the US if the country chose to leave the EU, as he made an emotional plea to Britons to vote for staying in.

as far as the US is concerned there is no rush for a US-UK trade deal

TTIP is a risk of staying in the EU at present, brexit (if it happens) would likely leave us watching how TTIP impacts the EU before we're able to negotiate our own deal

 

[Dj_Jestar]

if we vote for brexit we'll be back of the queue for US trade deals apparently so they'd not have the chance to sign up to such a thing any time soon

That's clap trap. The Conservatives *want* TTIP as soon as possible. In Cameron's own words, he wants to "put rocket boosters onto the deal"

 

[dowie]

That's clap trap. The Conservatives *want* TTIP as soon as possible. In Cameron's own words, he wants to "put rocket boosters onto the deal"

doesn't matter what Cameron wants, again that is completely moot if we're back of the queue from the US's perspective

Cameron isn't going to last as leader if we go for Brexit anyway