Tax - how much of your gross do you pay?

[Randomface74]

Did you pay for your education up to 18? Did you pay for your own medical bills? Did you thrive in a stable, peaceful, ordered society that is constructed and kept going by all the peoples taxes paid to date?

Did you pay for your education up to 18?
- Got a scholarship. And parents paid tax for someone elses education.

Did you pay for your own medical bills?
- I have used the NHS, and also have private medical.

Did you thrive in a stable, peaceful, ordered society that is constructed and kept going by all the peoples taxes paid to date?
- This doesn't stop because taxes become fair.

You'll assume I'm privileged in some way. I'm not, I grew up in a single parent minimum wage family. I worked hard and have earnt a higher rate but by no means exceptional salary. I've lived in shocking conditions to scrape together a deposit for a house, when people in the next street are given the same houses they haven't earnt.

 

[Freakbro]

I think you are wasting your time. Always the same posters spouting the same, tired communist/socialist rhetoric.

Umm, we live in a Conservative, middle right, capitalistic society, not sure how pointing out that having pensions, welfare and free at the point of use medical care is a good thing makes our society communist! LOL

 

[The Mad Rapper]

But the proposed flat rate tax system relies on a massively scaled back public spending budget. So they are fairly close, given the level of cuts to public services that would be required.

Nonsense.

Even you must recognise the horrendous amount of waste in public spending. Make more intelligent choices. Less waste.

I have no problem with welfare provided that it is used for it's supposed purpose. It should only ever exist as a short term helping hand for those who have fallen on hard times; it shouldn't be an alternative to work and there shouldn't be three generations living on benefits.

 

[Randomface74]

Do you realise the sort of society you'd be bringing on yourself if we didn't have public services funded by all of us? No roads, no ambulances, no sewers, no fire brigade to put out your house, no schools to educate your own children or even you and the crime rate would soar but there would be no police, courts or prison service to protect you or your property.

What you suggest is a very short term view in my opinion.

I don't recall suggesting we scrap roads, emergency services, sewers, or schools.

 

[Caged]

He isn't suggesting no public funding, he's suggesting a flat rate of tax. They aren't even close to being the same thing

He kept posting and other people read those posts which is how we got to the 'I don't want to pay for things that benefit others' position.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

Umm, we live in a Conservative, middle right, capitalistic society, not sure how pointing out that having pensions, welfare and free at the point of use medical care is a good thing makes our society communist! LOL

I think some of the views on taxation and the redistribution of wealth espoused by some forum members are communist/socialist.

 

[platypus]

Nonsense.

How is it nonsense? The TPA admit as much!

I have no problem with welfare provided that it is used for it's supposed purpose. It should only ever exist as a short term helping hand for those who have fallen on hard times; it shouldn't be an alternative to work and there shouldn't be three generations living on benefits.

Something we both agree on.

 

[Hades]

I don't recall suggesting we scrap roads, emergency services, sewers, or schools.

No you probably didn't. But I don't see that as any different to not wanting to contribute to the national pension funding. All are for the good of society and contribute to a safe and pleasant environment for everyone.

 

[Freakbro]

Yes I'd be in favour of scrapping it. Probably have to phase it out because people are expecting it, but yeah eventually we should remove it.

I'm almost at the point of saying the same goes for the NHS, but not quite there yet.

<snip> well, I'm not a charity... I don't want to give money to someone else just because they need it. I earnt it, should be my choice.

He isn't suggesting no public funding

I think you'll see he is

 

[The Mad Rapper]

He kept posting and other people read those posts which is how we got to the 'I don't want to pay for things that benefit others' position.

I agree with him to an extent. There's a line though and I don't think we (as a society) are on the right side of it at the moment.

I think you'll see he is

Public funding covers more than the NHS.

 

[platypus]

I don't recall suggesting we scrap roads, emergency services, sewers, or schools.

No and obviously the post was a little over exaggerated, but the broader point still stands. Looking at the proposals from the TPA, it requires a massive cut back on public spending.

Unless you can point to a different proposal that actually makes a little more sense?

 

[Caged]

Even you must recognise the horrendous amount of waste in public spending. Make more intelligent choices. Less waste.

How does reducing budgets drive up efficiency?

I think some of the views on taxation and the redistribution of wealth espoused by some forum members are communist/socialist.

You can't use communist/socialist as though they are the same thing.

 

[Randomface74]

No you probably didn't. But I don't see that as any different to not wanting to contribute to the national pension funding. All are for the good of society and contribute to a safe and pleasant environment for everyone.

Yeah it's off the topic of tax and more about things the government should or shouldn't do. One for another day

 

[Freakbro]

I think some of the views on taxation and the redistribution of wealth espoused by some forum members are communist/socialist.

Because as much as you may dislike it, wealth inequality is one of the biggest socially disruptive forces and the happiest most content societies are the ones with the least intrinsic inequality.

 

[platypus]

It's not off the topic of tax! Tax is how we pay for these things!

 

[Freakbro]

Public funding covers more than the NHS.

He was just quoting two areas of expenditure, pensions and NHS, and if he is willing to scrap both of those, because he shouldn't have to contribute, then it's easy to extrapolate his reasoning to every other area of public expenditure, no?


I mean, if you don't want to protect those two areas, what would be the reasoning to protect others?

Roads - just all private tolls. I can afford to pay them, why should you drive on them if you can't afford to.

Schools - I can afford to pay for my children's, why should yours have education if you can't afford to pay for it yourself.

Yea...I can't see any problems arising from that

 

[Caged]

It would be an interesting experiment to implement the Libertarian dream and see what happens to people in a good enough position to live comfortably but not quite at the level where they can afford a private police force. I would think that opinions might change.

Edit: Bugger we've accidentally turned a penis-waving thread into a real discussion.

 

[Randomface74]

It's not off the topic of tax! Tax is how we pay for these things!

Well there's a difference.

E.g.

Schools
- everyone recognizes the benefit of having an educated population. So everyone would choose to contribute. Money goes in a pot, government sorts it out, and we have schools.
- this is generally an efficient system
- standards are pretty good, it works

Pensions
- everyone needs money to live. you get it by working. if you run out, it's your problem. why does this change just because you're old? whether or not you have money is your responsibility.
- if, like me, you don't want the government to do this for you, then there's no need to fill a pot with money to fund it.

it's easy to extrapolate his reasoning to every other area of public expenditure, no?

If you say you're extrapolating - yes.
If you say I said stuff I didn't - no.


btw... I still want roads... just to clear up any doubt. I quite like roads.

 

[Caged]

The problem is if you limit your assault on public spending to the stuff you don't use then it starts to look less like a grand plan for tax reform and more like a moan.

 

[Randomface74]

Edit: Bugger we've accidentally turned a penis-waving thread into a real discussion.

We could wave them, but I'd be afraid you'd steal mine if it was bigger