shooting in gay club orlando

Chris Wilson · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:18

Tefal said:
Whats a more interesting question is why when there is a link to Islam there is never any questioning of thier mental health?

If this had been a white dude everyone would be trying to make a diagnosis.

Not if this "white dude" had been investigated for association with ideologies like the KKK, and upon starting his massacre in a black's only club phoned the police and said this is dedicated to the KKK.

People would accept he hated blacks and supported the KKK....

Caged · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:18

MookJong said:
I don't think anyone believes that this guy was in direct contact with a wide ISIS network. But does it matter?

I think it does matter, because in one of those situations your enemy is a group campaigning for a specific aim (ignoring how far fetched that aim is for a moment), and in the other situation your enemy is literally anybody who wants exposure for their acts of barbarism, which is more frightening and likely to lead to poorly thought out, reactionary lawmaking.

Felon · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:18

scorza said:
You realise that Evang's link is The Onion? A satire news website? You're not the only one to be caught out I guess but since you laughed at me in the other thread - "HAHAHAHAHAHAHA".

You can laugh all you like tbh, being caught out by satire is one thing - but seriously believing that arming everyone to the teeth in the london riots was a good idea doesn't even come close.

Tefal · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:21

Screeeech said:
From your link:

The mentality is beyond words to be honest.

It's almost as though they're routinely giving knives to small children, and when they end up getting hurt the response is - we can't stop it, these things just happen! we're powerless to stop it.

You realise its a satirical story

Its not real

RaohNS · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:25

Freakbro said:
Except even the FBI are saying don't jump to conclusions about his motives.

You need to watch the film 12 Angry Men to realise sometimes the most obvious answer isn't always correct.

And this doesn't mean I am just trying to deflect from any possible motives but am waiting for the officials to do their investigations first rather than jump to conclusions based on ever changing news reports

At the moment it seems just as likely he was a solo operator who was self radicalised who IS had never heard of rather than a sleeper cell planted working for and supported by IS.

And was his motivation against the American people in response to the religous war being perpertrated by militant Jihadis or was this just a gay hate crime?

Quite a difference to be fair, as the self radicalised person is the worse scenario as it's going to be virtually impossible to discover and stop people like that.

True enough. Time will tell.

iamtheoneneo · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:25

I think our police force have got it pretty right to be honest when it comes to weapons with only a set number of officers being armed or have the training to discharge a firearm.
America have got a problem because of state boundaries and the fact that the police will never relinquish control of arms and the public distrust around that and the amendment.

Tunney · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:25

Absolutely shocking. RIP to all those killed and I hope that those injured make a full recovery.

I hope this sparks a serious debate about gun control in America. If not, at least some action on the appalling state of mental health care.

Felon · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:27

Tefal said:
You realise its a satirical story

Its not real

The insane thing is, that it's become quite difficult to differentiate satire from reality, on issues of US gun violence.

Caged · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:31

That's why Armando isn't making The Thick of It any more.

scorza · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:33

Screeeech said:
You can laugh all you like tbh, being caught out by satire is one thing - but seriously believing that arming everyone to the teeth in the london riots was a good idea doesn't even come close.

I suspect these law abiding citizens who used firearms to defend their property during the '92 LA Riots would disagree.

LOL thinking a report from The Onion was the real thing - how embarrassing!

Felon · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:36

scorza said:
I suspect these law abiding citizens who used firearms to defend their property during the '92 LA Riots would disagree.

Of course they'd disagree, but then I'd simply point out that the end result of their societies own decision to allow this, results in over 30k deaths per year - and I don't need to say anything else whatsoever.

Minstadave · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:38

scorza said:
I suspect these law abiding citizens who used firearms to defend their property during the '92 LA Riots would disagree.

LOL thinking a report from The Onion was the real thing - how embarrassing!

My car was keyed once, does that justify arming the whole of the UK and the deaths incurred?

Property is replaceable, the thousands of lives lost by America's inability to deal with gun control aren't.

RDM · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:40

Freakbro said:
And was his motivation against the American people in response to the religous war being perpertrated by militant Jihadis or was this just a gay hate crime?

I am sure you didn't mean it but I am not entirely sure that 50 dead and more wounded could be described as "just a gay hate crime".

It is looking like there was some religious motivation and that the attacker had mental health issues and that the US has incredibly lax gun control laws. There is no reason to think that all three could not play a part in the atrocity.

Freakbro · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:52

RDM said:
I am sure you didn't mean it but I am not entirely sure that 50 dead and more wounded could be described as "just a gay hate crime".

No, of course not! I was just typing quickly and misused an adverb, apologies to Teacher

It is looking like there was some religious motivation and that the attacker had mental health issues and that the US has incredibly lax gun control laws. There is no reason to think that all three could not play a part in the atrocity.

Quite

cheesyboy · 13 Jun 2016 at 09:57

Mental health issues
Availability of guns
Publicity of previous mass killings
Extreme Ideology
Homophobia
Religious beliefs
Disenfranchisement

It's all likely to have played a part here. Pinning this sort of incident on one aspect is a bit reductive.

We should ask how much of it can be expected to be mitigated domestically - control the controllable. Ask questions of mental health services, gun control, equal rights, social opportunity/inequality, and push for changes.

Hades · 13 Jun 2016 at 10:07

I will reserve judgement on the motivation until more is known. But I wanted to add my RIP for the dead and wish the injured a speedy recovery.

Felon · 13 Jun 2016 at 10:12

cheesyboy said:
Mental health issues

We should ask how much of it can be expected to be mitigated domestically - control the controllable. Ask questions of mental health services, gun control, equal rights, social opportunity/inequality, and push for changes.

I think a good place to start would be to severely curtail the media reports, when one of these incidents takes place.

Leading the headlines with pictures of the killer, his name and who he was - along with the total body count figure, is a very risky thing to do. It's basically broadcasting an open platform for the next damaged/ill/unstable/fundamental person to gain worldwide infamy, by ending it in this way.

I'm all for the reporting of news, but I don't think it takes that much intelligence to notice that the way the media handle these things isn't helping one bit.

foster grant · 13 Jun 2016 at 10:19

scorza said:
People have short memories, it took the government a good number of days to retake control of London. I don't live in London anymore but I work with people who do - they were very, very worried because they had no means of defending themselves or their households against the gangs of thugs.

I live not very far at all ( a short bus ride )from where some of the " gangs of thugs " decided to set fire to busses or bus..and buildings , oh and break into shops and steal too , but I dont recall London being out of control for any number of days lol

MookJong · 13 Jun 2016 at 10:24

I think a good place to start would be to severely curtail the media reports, when one of these incidents takes place.

I have heard this argument a lot. Charlie Brooker made a good case for it on TV Wipe I believe.

However I think it would be difficult because you would have people shouting "cover up" especially if it was Islamic related you might have a feeling like Rotherham that the authorities are hiding the truth in a damage limitation exercise.

On the other hand if it wasn't Islamic you would have a whole host of other conspiracy theories cropping up.

Local people deserve to know what happened. I think the issue is global news is voyeuristic and maybe we should concentrate more on the things happening in our own back yard.

thep02 · 13 Jun 2016 at 10:27

Wow shocking to see a Turkish newspaper with the headline "50 perverts dead" :eek: