shooting in gay club orlando

cheesyboy said:
But crazy muslims must surely be speaking for their religion. Right?
Click to expand...

For me, I'm afraid so.

To be honest, if the leaders of ISIS and all the other terror groups where all crazy, i don't think they would have lasted 12 months, there is clear leadership, all of them cannot be crazy, in fact the very top are probably very clever people with very clever people helping them also.

No, not the west before anyone jumps in :)
 
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.
 
Arazi said:
I think the same, same old people spouting same old waffle.

The question of what is a proper\true Muslim,

ISIS etc think of themselves as proper\true Muslims, as apparently they follow Islam\The Quran the way it should be followed.

So in the eyes of ISIS etc all you non murdering Muslims are not proper\true Muslims because you don't follow Islam\The Quran in the correct way.

And

In the eyes of all you non-murdering Muslims ISIS etc are not true\proper Muslims.

Who is right :)
Click to expand...

Well for a start we need to respect AK22's views of Islam.

If you really think a "true Muslim" was a person who believed that blowing innocent people to smithereens along with himself is a sure-fire method of instantly gaining access to heaven, then the population of earth would instantly decrease by 5 billion. Lets say 1 billion Muslims and 4 innocent people taken along with each of them. Therefore it is an absolute absurdity to get tied up with what is "true" because both sides believe themselves to be true for goodness sake.

What do you think ISIS is going to say other than their version is the truth lmao? You think they're going to say it's not true? These guys are using Islam as a rationalisation mechanism for murder goodness sake, of course it's going to be true, you think they don't honestly believe they're going to heaven? "Truth" in this case is absolutely meaningless because it's NOT absolute, nor actual, because religion itself is a massive journey through delusional psychosis, even for the people who are incapable of murder.

This is why it is absolutely dangerous to get wound up in semantics. "True" Muslim or not it doesn't matter because because neither can be absolute truth due to the very nature of ALL religion being a delusion. If there is even one Muslim on the planet (such as AK22) who calls himself Muslim and believes that the killing of one human being being the equivalent of killing all of humanity, then whining about "true Muslims" is a complete and utter waste of time because there is clearly a differentiation and one needs to use far deeper logic and insight to understand the total complexity of the all the factors involved in a man becoming a terrorist, a murderer, a rapist, etc, etc, etc.


NooBish AbbZ said:
I agree that ISIS are more terrorists than muslims.. Nevertheless, there is an (obvious) strong common denominator..
Click to expand...
It makes me laugh when people spout elementary levels of insight such as this.

It is absolutely not as simple as picking a common denominator like that. We absolutely cannot do anything with all Muslims because if we do we're going to make things a million times worse because everyone seems to have forgotten that there are over a billion of them all around the ****ing world! And all of them are in a state of delusion/psychosis and in a heightened state of susceptibility to the power of suggestion, whether or not they're capable of mass murder is not something I want to test!

Everything that we have ever done since the start of the "War on Terror" over a decade ago has simply awakened more terrorists. That is what scares me, and what also scares me is ridiculous ideas like "Muslim is a strong common denominator"? Seriously stay in your armchair and put the keyboard away mate you have absolutely no idea what you're terrible insight can potentially cause.
 
Last edited:
Arazi said:
For me, I'm afraid so.

To be honest, if the leaders of ISIS and all the other terror groups where all crazy, i don't think they would have lasted 12 months, there is clear leadership, all of them cannot be crazy, in fact the very top are probably very clever people with very clever people helping them also.

No, not the west before anyone jumps in :)
Click to expand...

Well indeed. And neither were the nonce priests crazy. They were very manipulative and clever. But did they too speak for their religion on the matter of child abuse?

The guy in this story really does seem to have had mental health problems, and he, apparently, still speaks for Islam.
 
asim18 said:
Well for a start we need to respect AK22's views of Islam.

If you really think a "true Muslim" was a person who believed that blowing innocent people to smithereens along with himself is a sure-fire method of instantly gaining access to heaven, then the population of earth would instantly decrease by 5 billion. Lets say 1 billion Muslims and 4 innocent people taken along with each of them. Therefore it is an absolute absurdity to get tied up with what is "true" because both sides believe themselves to be true for goodness sake.

What do you think ISIS is going to say other than their version is the truth lmao? You think they're going to say it's not true? These guys are using Islam as a rationalisation mechanism for murder goodness sake, of course it's going to be true, you think they don't honestly believe they're going to heaven? "Truth" in this case is absolutely meaningless because it's NOT absolute, nor actual, because religion itself is a massive journey through delusional psychosis, even for the people who are incapable of murder.

This is why it is absolutely dangerous to get wound up in semantics. "True" Muslim or not it doesn't matter because because neither can be absolute truth due to the very nature of ALL religion being a delusion. If there is even one Muslim on the planet (such as AK22) who calls himself Muslim and believes that the killing of one human being being the equivalent of killing all of humanity, then whining about "true Muslims" is a complete and utter waste of time because there is clearly a differentiation and one needs to use far deeper logic and insight to understand the total complexity of the all the factors involved in a man becoming a terrorist, a murderer, a rapist, etc, etc, etc.



It makes me laugh when people spout elementary levels of insight such as this.

It is absolutely not as simple as picking a common denominator like that. We absolutely cannot do anything with all Muslims because if we do we're going to make things a million times worse because everyone seems to have forgotten that there are over a billion of them all around the ****ing world! And all of them are in a state of delusion/psychosis and in a heightened state of susceptibility to the power of suggestion, whether or not they're capable of mass murder is not something I want to test!

Everything that we have ever done since the start of the "War on Terror" over a decade ago has simply awakened more terrorists. That is what scares me, and what also scares me is ridiculous ideas like "Muslim is a strong common denominator"? Seriously stay in your armchair and put the keyboard away mate you have absolutely no idea what you're terrible insight can potentially cause.
Click to expand...

First up no i don't think that, and my post was more humour, do you really think i was being serious? sorry if you did, :)
 
cheesyboy said:
Well indeed. And neither were the nonce priests crazy. They were very manipulative and clever. But did they too speak for their religion on the matter of child abuse?

The guy in this story really does seem to have had mental health problems, and he, apparently, still speaks for Islam.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but what i see coming with your kind of opinion is that everytime a lone Muslim goes on to murder people then your opinion and others is going to be used more and more until everytime it happens no one looks at the religion as the problem and blame it all on the killer being just crazy, everytime.
 
Arazi said:
From The Prophet:

Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

— Sunan Abu Dawood, 38:4447 see also Sunan Abu Dawood, 38:4448 Sunan Abu Dawood, 31:4007 Sunan Abu Dawood, 31:4008 Sunan Abu Dawood, 11:2169 Sunan Abu Dawood, 32:4087 Sunan Abu Dawood, 32:4088
Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:72:774 see also Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:82:820
There were varying opinions on how the death penalty was to be carried out. Abu Bakr apparently recommended toppling a wall on the evil-doer, or else burning alive,[35] while Ali bin Abi Talib ordered death by stoning for one "luti" and had another thrown head-first from the top of a minaret—according to Ibn Abbas, this last punishment must be followed by stoning.[36]

Gays ain't welcome
Click to expand...

Did you even read the thing you posted???

It does not say homosexual, it says "Effeminate men" and it explains "effeminate man" as "those who assume the manners of women". Are you saying a homosexual is simply an Effeminate man?? Because I seem to know many gays who are perfectly capable of acting like men.

I know many homosexual Muslims who go into other Muslim's homes including their parents homes and are perfectly welcome there. If they turned up as a drag queen, which is what your quote is actually describing, it would be a different matter.
 
Last edited:
asim18 said:
Did you even read the thing you posted???

It does not say homosexual, it says "Effeminate men" and it explains "effeminate man" as "those who assume the manners of women". Are you saying a homosexual is simply an Effeminate man?? Because I seem to know many gays who are perfectly capable of acting like men.

I know many homosexual Muslims who go into other Muslim's homes including their parents homes and are perfectly welcome there. If they turned up as a drag queen, which is what your quote is actually describing, it would be a different matter.
Click to expand...

There is plenty more on the wiki link i provided above, all taken from The Quran.
 
Arazi said:
There is plenty more on the wiki link i provided above, all taken from The Quran.
Click to expand...

Haha, your link has 4 quotes and only one is from the Quran and is an anecdote of some guy named Lot. Not a direct commanding of any kind.

So no, not plenty and not "all" taken from the Quran.
 
chief barker said:
I find that difficult to believe.
Click to expand...

So when did you choose to be straight or gay then? and when did any person indoctrinated into Islam choose to be a Muslim?

You need to expand your insight in order to be able to believe it :)

The fact that homosexual Muslims exist could even be the root cause of a vast majority of all terrorism, The fact that a lot of them are taught that they're going to hell because they're gay could VERY easily entice them to kill innocent people in order for a "chance" to get into heaven.

Religion is massive, there are far too many variables for common people to be able to understand.
 
Last edited:
asim18 said:
Did you even read the thing you posted???

It does not say homosexual, it says "Effeminate men" and it explains "effeminate man" as "those who assume the manners of women". Are you saying a homosexual is simply an Effeminate man?? Because I seem to know many gays who are perfectly capable of acting like men.

I know many homosexual Muslims who go into other Muslim's homes including their parents homes and are perfectly welcome there. If they turned up as a drag queen, which is what your quote is actually describing, it would be a different matter.
Click to expand...


The Quran[edit]


The Quran contains seven references to fate of "the people of Lut", and their destruction by Allah is associated explicitly with their sexual practices:[29][30][31]

"And (We sent) Lot when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you? Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people. And the answer of his people was no other than that they said: Turn them out of your town, surely they are a people who seek to purify (themselves). So We delivered him and his followers, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind. And We rained upon them a rain; consider then what was the end of the guilty."[7:80–84 (Translated by Shakir)]

The sins of the people of Lut became proverbial, and the Arabic words for homosexual behaviour (liwāṭ) and for a person who performs such acts (lūṭi) both derive from his name.[32] The story of Lut is used to demonstrate how homosexuality is based in non-consent between the men. However, some scholars[who?] of Islam argue that the foundation of homosexual discourse in Islam cannot be rooted in consent because there are many more instances in the Quran in which there is no consent between partners. With this, sexual acts between men and youth are not considered transgressive.

Only one passage in the Qur'an prescribes a strictly legal position. It is not restricted to homosexual behaviour, however, and deals more generally with public practice of adultery:[33]

"And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful."[4:15–16 (Translated by Shakir)]

Because the Quran is also a legal document, there are several major sins outlined in the text. Two of these consider sexual misconduct. They are Zina and Liwat.[2] Zina literally means "adultery". It is "sex between a man and a woman who is neither his wife nor his slave—the most serious of sexual transgressions described in the Qur'an".[2] Liwat is "anal intercourse between men or anal sex between a male and a female 'stranger'—that is, a woman who is neither his wife nor his slave over whom he has no sexual rights". The issue of homosexuality comes more from a standpoint of legal sexual rights.[2]

According to the laws of Shariah, Muslims found guilty of homosexual acts should repent rather than confess. This means that many Muslim countries tolerate same-sex acts so long as they happen in private and do not challenge the existing dominant family and social order.[34] Many Muslim scholars have followed this idea of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in regards to homosexuality in Islam, by treating the subject with passivity.[2] Comparisons have been made between the imperative nature of the secrecy of homosexual acts and the secrecy of women in many Islamic societies. In other words, women have to live under a certain amount of secrecy (whether that means being veiled or otherwise), and homosexuals must keep all of their transgressions and acts a secret.

Arazi said:
From The Prophet:

Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

— Sunan Abu Dawood, 38:4447 see also Sunan Abu Dawood, 38:4448 Sunan Abu Dawood, 31:4007 Sunan Abu Dawood, 31:4008 Sunan Abu Dawood, 11:2169 Sunan Abu Dawood, 32:4087 Sunan Abu Dawood, 32:4088
Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:72:774 see also Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:82:820
There were varying opinions on how the death penalty was to be carried out. Abu Bakr apparently recommended toppling a wall on the evil-doer, or else burning alive,[35] while Ali bin Abi Talib ordered death by stoning for one "luti" and had another thrown head-first from the top of a minaret—according to Ibn Abbas, this last punishment must be followed by stoning.[36]

Gays ain't welcome
Click to expand...


The above is from the same link, I have quoted my post from earlier underneath, you now have the passages from the link i provided before, there is plenty more on the wiki, now do you understand what it says?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam#The_Quran
 
asim18 said:
Haha, your link has 4 quotes and only one is from the Quran and is an anecdote of some guy named Lot. Not a direct commanding of any kind.

So no, not plenty and not "all" taken from the Quran.
Click to expand...

Whatever way you look at it, being gay is still not welcome, i don't think I've read an actual good word at the very least in Islam for being gay.

Can you prove the information in the wiki link is factually wrong?
 
chief barker said:
LOL all you like.

I was questioning whether he knew a lot of homosexual Muslims - I was not implying that there were wasn't a lot of gay muslims as I'm sure there are plenty.
Click to expand...

So you agree there are plenty of homosexual muslims but now you are explaining that you were actually questioning whether I actually knew any of them? So you're making a joke and then wondering why the other dude LOLed?

Why is it easy for you to know that there are "plenty" homosexual Muslims out there, but then find it hard to believe some guy on the internet knows several of them?

In fact the actuality of me knowing any gay Muslims is completely irrelevant as long as you agree that you know there are gay Muslims out there :D
 
Last edited:
Arazi said:
Whatever way you look at it, being gay is still not welcome, i don't think I've read an actual good word at the very least in Islam for being gay.

Can you prove the information in the wiki link is factually wrong?
Click to expand...

No, your understanding of the page is factually wrong.

It clearly says "This means that many Muslim countries tolerate same-sex acts so long as they happen in private and do not challenge the existing dominant family and social order."

You don't have to worry about trying to understand anything else mate, it tells you explicitly what it "means".....
"Muslim countries tolerate same-sex acts"
"Muslim countries tolerate same-sex acts"
"Muslim countries tolerate same-sex acts"

In fact there are homosexual street parties in Pakistan itself!


Again, it's nothing do with being gay, its to do with being effeminate and advertising your sex to everyone.

I wouldn't want sex being rammed in my face whether its hetero or homo or whatever.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom