Brexit thread - what happens next

[the_r_sole]

https://inthelastfiveyears.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/

I think maybe it’s time to have a little word about democracy.

I appreciate that feelings are running high but I think some people are perhaps waving the wrong end of a very splintery stick about what democracy means. So let’s start by sorting out what it DOESN’T mean.

Democracy isn’t a bloody game of Monopoly. It isn’t like a bloody football match. It’s not about winners and losers. If your team lost their match then that’s tough I understand, but it doesn’t result in years, even decades of financial uncertainty, and reductions in freedoms, for millions of people. Lost jobs and lost opportunities.

What happened to the markets on Friday is just the start. The democratic right you just exercised will have dire economic consequences for all those people and it is not about feeling a bit gloomy for a few days.

Democracy is not consequence-free.

Democracy is where decisions are taken by officials who are elected by the people, who are held accountable by the people, who step up and understand the complexities that the rest of us cannot have sight of. And then we can ditch them if they mess up.

That’s not what happened.

This decision was taken by people who were told to IGNORE experts. And the people who lied and lied and lied to persuade people to make this decision – who will hold them accountable for those lies? In a democratic situation, someone would face the consequences.

Democracy does not mean that you have no responsibility for your decisions. If you pressed the red button even though there were lots of big signs all around saying ‘DO NOT PRESS THE RED BUTTON OR BAD STUFF WILL HAPPEN!’ – well then you have the democratic right to press the button.

But I do not have to respect your democratic choice to press the button. I can think that you were wrong to press it, and all the bad consequences that stem from that for me and my country and my children – I can say that I do not want to pay the price for your reckless button pressing. It’s not just your own head you stuck in the microwave oven all wrapped in foil and made it explode. It was lots of things I liked a lot before you made splatter all over the walls of the kitchen. I will not help you scrape them off.

And most of all, and this is very very important, I do not have to accept a decision just because it is democratic. Don’t get me started on all the things that were set into law by the democratic process.

Apartheid. The Iraq War, Section 28. I thought those decisions were wrong. The decision to place missiles at Greenham Common was democratic. And wrong.

The democratic right you exercised was to dismantle our membership of the EU. I think that was wrong. The democratic right I have is to protest and seek to change that decision through all the democratic means that a democratic society has to offer. This referendum result doesn’t trump anything. It’s not the last word.

I certainly am not in any frame of mind to help you in the process of destroying all the things I value so much.

In interests of pulling together? Well we aren’t together. Our aims are not the same. I don’t think what has been sent hurtling down the hill can be fixed by an injection of positive thinking and cheery optimism.

And in the end it doesn’t matter if I can change the decision, or if it’s likely. The important thing is that I fight against it. The thing about protest is that it is powerful in ways that putting your X in a box can’t really match. The power of protest is the power of solidarity and the shared power to not feel overwhelmed by – in this case – the daily grind of racist and xenophobic rhetoric.

You had a choice to make, and I have the choice to accept it or not.

Protest is not whining. Protest is a democratic right.

 

[ltron]

We could and the British Government chose not to. Since Tata steel shutting down the British government announced changes to protect Britsih STeel which meant that not only there was a buyer for Tata steel, even Tata steel were having second thoughts about selling. No with Brexit thats all off again.

Now if the government had made these changes 5 years ago then Tata never would have closed it down in the first place.

However, the EU gets the blame when in fact Mr Steel Worker should be blaming the Tories for doing nothing.

Point is government didnt car for them, EU did and sent 600m a year to help but thats gone now too.

You think the government is suddenly in the upcoming recession going to care about the North East and steel workers again?

I agree with this completely.

 

[Six6siX]

I'm talking about before all these reports even, hell, even before the actual vote it was happening.

Ahh I see, I agree that there were stupid people. Maybe this is what they were alluding to, who knows.

The fact is that the continuation of denial despite the evidence suggests that the problem does actually exist and it needs to be acknowledged and dealt with.

 

[pioneer2000]

excellent, more validation of racism in the UK.

One must wonder, if you have such a hard time in the UK, why do you want to be here?

(not in a "pack your bags" way, just must be miserable if it's as bad as you make out)

 

[.Trooper.]

At what point to people accept that they were not invited here but came anyway en mass . There are millions of people that have not just been tolerated but massively pandered to by the left. It has gone on for so long and been thrust upon people who didn't want it. of course you are now seeing some backlashm it's been repressed for 20 years.

When my parents came here the UK government actively asked foreigners to come here as they needed people to fill the labour force. Do you think racists will tell the difference? Nah.

But at least you're honest about your true colours, eh?

 

[VincentHanna]

Frankly what's annoying me most out of all of this is the remain camps childishness.
Look if things are bad, fine it was a mistake, only time will tell. However what is not going to help is keyboard warrioring sand in the vaj.

Plus it is very pathetic to add a racist stamp to the feeling of desperation when things have become overcrowded. I for one want immigration to stop. Tar me as a racist, but I'm not say I want all the blacks to stop coming or the polish, just people. I want people to stop coming here and allow us to get the poor off their asses and into those jobs, create more infrastuctures, and more homes. Have a happy UK again and then open the doors.
If that takes a kick up the butt of the people in this country, then maybe desperation from leaving the EU is what we needed. Maybe if we struggle we might roll up our sleeves and get on with life, cause frankly if we don't and the generation of "everyone wins a medal" decides to give up then we are screwed beyond belief.

However at least this time it's down to us.


(Follow this post with, oooohhh booo hooo this is why idiots voted leave blahh blah blah)

Or I could counter with this?

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/brexit-wont-reduce-immigration-explains-vote-leave-campaigner-5966910/

 

[deuse]

So let me get this right. We have two choices:

• Ignore the will of the British people as it was last Thursday and revisit our EU membership with whatever government we have left
• Uphold the will of the British people as it was last Thursday and invoke article 50 with no strategy and no frame of reference for any trade deals or even understanding of what is to be offered

Well **** me.

As said already. The EU are trying to rush things as they are doing much worse then us.
When Cameron meets this week with the EU leaders it may change.

 

[DB_SamX]

Have the racists ever stopped to think that maybe some people of skin colour other than white may have voted leave too?

That would be embarrassing for them to discover.

My parents voted leave, and they are "brown". I blame myself partially because I assumed they would have seen through all crud promises by Leave on TV and would have voted to stay. I did tell they should do so, but did not spell it out to them. I now regret this.

It's not till Friday and Saturday that I questioned them on it and I could see remorse in their eyes. They couldn't tell me why they voted Leave.

I am a little embarrassed, but at the same time, I shouldn't have to force people to vote for something; they merely fell for false promises, and that's the Leave side to blame.

So on the matter of racism, I agree with this:

Not all brexiters are racist, but all racists now think 52% of the country agrees with them.

 

[do_ron_ron]

At what point to people accept that they were not invited here but came anyway en mass . There are millions of people that have not just been tolerated but massively pandered to by the left. It has gone on for so long and been thrust upon people who didn't want it. of course you are now seeing some backlashm it's been repressed for 20 years.

You mean the British Govt did not go to the Caribbean and try to get people to come to Britain to the poor paid jobs our people did not want?
Or the farmers of England did not seek Europeans and lately East Europeans to help with their crops because our lot would not do it.
It is a human reaction when in a downturn to blame those who are new to the country. You even get the same hostility for Brits who move to other parts of the UK to get work at these times. If you read history you will see it time and time again.

 

[Freefaller]

Would that it were so. We're at the mercy of whoever sits down at the bargaining table. We may be subject to the same rules without a voice among many when those rules are made.

I hope not, if we're going to divorce ourselves from the family, I'd rather not have to rely on them (the EU). It's all or nothing isn't it? Otherwise what was the point in leaving?

 

[Chris Wilson]

The point is that this is not mere 'casual racism', it's violent in-your-face racism and the perpetrators are citing the Brexit as justification.

This has been explained several times already.

What do you want people to do about it? You are in Oz, I am too old to go picking a punch up with a group of layabouts, and most people are too wrapped up in their own problems to do other than tut and move along.

Terrible as it is to say this, there always has, and always will be a percentage of people here who are racist, bullying and with a Cavalier disregard for gentlemanly conduct, or indeed the law. Are you suggesting migrants or coloured people go around in groups and defend themselves? None racists to act as vigilantes? Those who feel they are being targeted to act as vigilantes? I know it's a job for the coppers, but how often do you see a beat bobbie?

Difficult situation, but some will think, "Hey, is this a ploy to make a political point based on a disappointment with the referendum result?". Not being a social media enthusiast I can only go by face to face anecdotal and personal experience. Not heard any blatant racial abuse in these parts, and believe me the locals aren't backward about imposing an opinion!

 

[deuse]

Or I could counter with this?

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/brexit-wont-reduce-immigration-explains-vote-leave-campaigner-5966910/

They have no choice. The people have spoken. Well that's unless they want to commit political suicide.

 

[The Running Man]

When my parents came here the UK government actively asked foreigners to come here as they needed people to fill the labour force. Do you think racists will tell the difference? Nah.

But at least you're honest about your true colours, eh?

Yes as were many 50 - 70 years ago.

However not in the last 20 years. What you are seeing is blowback from this failure of government policy to tackle the issue unfortunately.

 

[cheesyboy]

https://inthelastfiveyears.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/

This was really very good.

People would do well to avoid illustrating their lack of critical thinking by suggesting others "should just get over it"

 

[Jono8]

unless they want to commit political suicide.

Whatever choice anyone makes will be relative political suicide.

 

[ChroniC]

Or I could counter with this?

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/brexit-wont-reduce-immigration-explains-vote-leave-campaigner-5966910/

That's exactly my point. Make it. Make what has become a nightmare into the dream of a UK that we voted for. Stop rolling over like a submissive dog, and just shut the ******* borders, their ours for god sake. Go start talk tormorrow with the rest of the world, and see what is available. Start article 50 and get whats we can from the EU and then just deal with it.

Man the **** up and get on the job.

 

[do_ron_ron]

Well he does have a point, what would this do to politics and the feeling of the population towards politics if the exit did not go ahead.

Basically I think the whole thing now is truly a disaster whichever way it goes.

Given it is a mess. You have to choose the lesser of two evils. Make the already distrusted politicians look even worse or tank the economy on which everybody depends, especially the poorer.

 

[toshj]

As said already. The EU are trying to rush things as they are doing much worse then us.
When Cameron meets this week with the EU leaders it may change.

I don't agree with that. The EU has the power of 27 central banks as well as the ECB. We have one central bank. They're trying to back us into a corner so that negotiating will ultimate benefit them. They may be bluffing, but it's one hell of a powerful position for us to ignore.

The last thing you should ever do in this situation is to underestimate risk.

 

[DB_SamX]

Yes as were many 50 - 70 years ago.

However not in the last 20 years. What you are seeing is blowback from this failure of government policy to tackle the issue unfortunately.

I posted above to say nurses were being recruited from abroad in the late nineties. That's within the 20 years.

 

[oldbag]

Something so important as this shouldn't have been decided on 50% of the vote. Should have been 60 or 70 to decide in or out.