Brexit thread - what happens next

Glaucus · 2 Jul 2016 at 12:59

Deleted member 2277 said:
So, we keep on having referendums until you get the result you want? The leave vote won so we should now leave.

"democracy" based on lies and fears is not democracy.

if we had a re run, then there should be some rules set and proper education. then accepted regardless of outcome.

or better still our democracy is not set up as direct democracy and not have a referendum to start with.

the_r_sole · 2 Jul 2016 at 12:59

Deleted member 2277 said:
So, we keep on having referendums until you get the result you want? The leave vote won so we should now leave.

Along the same lines, do you think that after a general election to parties that didn't win should just disband until the next election or do you think they should be allowed to debate the issues representing the population that did vote for them?

uber soldat · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:01

The leave vote won, no matter if you agree with it or not, it would be an affront to the soldiers of 2 world wars if the democracy they spilled blood and died for was thrown out the window.

Glaucus · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:02

uber soldat said:
The leave vote won, no matter if you agree with it or not, it would be an affront to the soldiers of 2 world wars if the democracy they spilled blood and died for was thrown out the window.

emotional twoddle and is so wrong.

Gilly · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:03

uber soldat said:
The leave vote won, no matter if you agree with it or not, it would be an affront to the soldiers of 2 world wars if the democracy they spilled blood and died for was thrown out the window.

Just saying that is an affront to them. You couldn't be more wrong.

Rroff · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:04

Werewolf said:
And that is an area that is going to be hit hard by leaving the EU.

A lot of the best scientific institutions in the country either rely directly on being in the EU (funding for research coming from EU grants after proposals from here), or indirectly because of things like the ease of working with other research bases on the continent thanks to the ease of movement and shared regulations.

It's these sorts of groups that have brought a lot of the high tech, high income "idea" factories by creating stuff then licencing it out and starting on new stuff.
And because they're getting money they can afford to employ more people both for the higher paid jobs (and putting it back into research), and the service side of things.

We can't compete on manufacturing lower tech/bulk stuff due to wages and things like actual environmental and safety laws (the sort of working conditions common in some countries were banned here in the late 1900's), but we are a world leader in actual research, development and specialist technologies*, something that is now at serious risk.

*From memory despite our lack of a space programme as such, we have some very highly regarded companies that make satellites and specialist bits for various space agencies

Yeah hence what I said about some people (businesses) having to put up real money :S

Companies like ARM are a testament to what this country can do and should be aspiring to do more and infact will have to try and do more in the future (if things pan out the way they are looking like).

uber soldat · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:04

Glaucus said:
emotional twoddle and is so wrong.

Care to explain why rather than just say im wrong?

StriderX · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:06

Gilly said:
No it isn't. Not even slightly.

The truth doesn't matter, only spin matters and if the news outlets say it's undemocratic... Then the pitchforks will ensue.

do_ron_ron · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:06

Mauller said:
Delusions of grandeur are better than sleepwalking into a superstate with no say over what happens in your own country.

So you are now claiming we have no veto over proposed EU legislation?

Glaucus · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:06

uber soldat said:
Care to explain why rather than just say im wrong?

care to explain your side

2 main reasons, they didn't fight for anything like this situation they aren't even comparable. they fought against fear.

and "democracy" based on fears, lies and ignorance is not democracy.
and that is exactly how you won.

ron3003 · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:08

'There is no official turn-out figure for this protest but there must be several thousand at least on the streets around Hyde Park corner.'

From the BBC live report, doesn't sound like there's much of a stomach for this protest.

do_ron_ron · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:08

Gilly said:
Even less when £100m more a week has been promised to the NHS this week should Gove win.

Of course, we've heard that sort of promise before

£350m Just over a week ago, down to £100m now. At this rate they will get the price of a coffee.

Jono8 · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:09

do_ron_ron said:
So you are now claiming we have no veto over proposed EU legislation?

I don't understand the leave camp at all or what they really think or believe the EU is.

On some arguments ( ie re trade deals) they claim the EU is a failure because to get things done/pass significant bits of legislation it requires the agreement of 28 countries and then in the next they claim it is an undemocratic dictatorship within which we have no say....

uber soldat · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:10

Glaucus said:
care to explain your side

2 main reasons, they didn't fight for anything like this situation they aren't even comparable. they fought against fear.

and "democracy" based on fears, lies and ignorance is not democracy.
and that is exactly how you won.

People are calling for a democratic vote to be ignored, that in itself is ridiculous just because you may not agree with it. Do i really have to explain how a democracy works?

Deleted member 2277 · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:10

the_r_sole said:
Along the same lines, do you think that after a general election to parties that didn't win should just disband until the next election or do you think they should be allowed to debate the issues representing the population that did vote for them?

This isn't anything to do with general elections. The refererdum question was should we remain or leave the EU. We voted to leave.

If everyone would just accept the outcome and stop whinging we could get on with leaving.

do_ron_ron · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:11

Skunkworks said:
I love the different ways people square it away in their own head how it's for the best to ignore deomcracy.

Tell that to the local people who voted against Incinerators only to find the company appealed to the minister and democracy gets shafted.

a1ex2001 · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:11

Greebo said:
There are massive massive problems with pr which results in hung parliaments all the time and nothing gets done. A bit like the criticism of the eu with 27 members all to please. When you have 10+ different parties all with seats in the House of Commons and no one party with a majority or even two parties together with one, then you get to a stage for any law to be introduced you have to do deals and compromises so everything stagnates or something that perhaps was overall good for the country doesn't get passed cause the ukip or greens both didn't like it.

See I'm in the minority on this but I actually think hung the politics of consensus would actually be good for the country it would put an end to our constant Tory labour switches with both sides doing the best to screw things up to benefit themselves. The consensus politics required for coalition moderates extremes and would stop the Tories privatising everything to fill the pockets of the rich and Labour selling the gold to fund an unaffordable welfare state. Only downside is you'd put nutters like farage in Whitehall for a bit but people would soon realise he isn't the messiah and his promises would evaporate like a lib dem tuition fee's pledge at the first whiff of power.

Jono8 · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:11

uber soldat said:
People are calling for a democratic vote to be ignored, that in itself is ridiculous just because you may not agree with it. Do i really have to explain how a democracy works?

Does someone need to explain to you that it requires an act of parliment to enact article 50 and that the referendum was non-binding?

Glaucus · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:12

uber soldat said:
People are calling for a democratic vote to be ignored, that in itself is ridiculous just because you may not agree with it. Do i really have to explain how a democracy works?

bahhaahhahaaa
democratic vote based on lies, fear etc is not democratic.

do I have to explain why any democracy has to have legislation to protect minorities.

the_r_sole · 2 Jul 2016 at 13:13

Deleted member 2277 said:
This isn't anything to do with general elections. The refererdum question was should we remain or leave the EU. We voted to leave.

The referendum was advisory and not legally binding, why should anyone be denied their democratic right to protest a decision they don't agree with?
You've clearly missed the point of my post, perhaps not surprising since you only want to understand a binary result and not the context in which it sits