Brexit thread - what happens next

[yonderblue]

The EU referendum result has created the situation where Scotland has to either remain in the UK and leave the EU or stay in the EU and leave the UK.

Don't you agree then that the Scottish people should now get the chance to decide which of those two options they would rather pursue? Would that not be the most democratic thing to do?

The people arguing that because we voted to stay in the UK two years ago we should just accept being taken out of the EU against our will are being extremely narrow minded.

 

[lovelyhead]

You mean 38%

Scotland voted to stay in the EU with almost 65% of the vote dontchaknow.

 

[yonderblue]

Scotland voted to stay in the EU with almost 65% of the vote dontchaknow.

 

[estebanrey]

Your argument kind of falls apart when you read the contents of the article you posted. I quote:

"In an interview with The Times, Salmond said an English vote to take the UK out of the European Union if Scots vote to stay could be the "tipping point" that brings about another poll."

So exactly what has happened.

You've forgotten what we were debating there son. You claimed that the SNP 'accepted' the first referendum result, yet only 3 months after it Salmond was already talking up the prospects of a second one. I wouldn't say that was 'accepting' the result would you?

A precedent has already been set. The SNP had a manifesto promise to hold the first Scottish Independence Referendum at the previous Scottish election. They were voted into government at that time so had the mandate to carry out their manifesto promise.

They won a mandate to ask the UK government for permission to ask the Scottish people a "once in a lifetime" question that none of them had any democratic say in before.

It is exactly the same this time. The PM might choose to deny another referendum but all that will do is create a Catalan situation in Scotland. Scottish Independence would be 100% certain at that point.

It's not the same for the reason stated above. "You should let us have our say on something we've never had to chance to have a say on before" is not the same as "We already had a chance but now we want another go because things have changed".

Scottish Independence would be 100% guaranteed because we'd create a situation like Catalonia despite the fact Catalonia famously aren't independent? What???

So you are saying that the views of the Scottish people should be accepted in one referendum but not in another? London is not a country, Scotland is.

Aye and Scotland aren't a member state of the EU, the UK is (for the time being). The referendum was a UK referendum, there was no official separate counting for the four countries of the UK in the same way London don't get to be run by Labour because the rest of the country voted for the Tories.

The view of the Scottish people should be respected in the first referendum because it was a vote only undertaken by the Scots on a specific issue relating to the Scots. The view of the Scots in this one should be respected but it shouldn't trump the rest of the UK's decision to leave the EU as, for the 1,000th time, this was UK VOTE not a Scottish one.

 

[estebanrey]

The EU referendum result has created the situation where Scotland has to either remain in the UK and leave the EU or stay in the EU and leave the UK.

Wrong, as we learned from Indy Ref 1, Scotland can not "stay" in the EU as 'Scotland' because 'Scotland' are not in the EU, the UK are.

So the choice for Scotland is to either leave the EU with the UK, or leave the UK and re-apply to become an EU member as an independent nation (with all that comes with, the euro, schengen etc).

Don't you agree then that the Scottish people should now get the chance to decide which of those two options they would rather pursue? Would that not be the most democratic thing to do?

Most Scottish 'Yes' voters think they can "retain" their EU membership, keep the pound and the free travel area with the rest of the UK. When they find out they'll end up with the Euro and will need a passport to get into Cumbria I'm sure the appetite will wane.

The people arguing that because we voted to stay in the UK two years ago we should just accept being taken out of the EU against our will are being extremely narrow minded.

David Cameron had already stated there would be a UK-wide EU referendum prior to the Scots indy ref in 2014, the only one being narrow-minded were the people who voted 'No' then but now want another chance because something happened they were already warned about and considered when voting the first time.

 

[yonderblue]

Wrong, as we learned from Indy Ref 1, Scotland can not "stay" in the EU as 'Scotland' because 'Scotland' are not in the EU, the UK are.

So the choice for Scotland is to either leave the EU with the UK, or leave the UK and re-apply to become an EU member as an independent nation (with all that comes with, the euro, schengen etc).



Most Scottish 'Yes' voters think they can "retain" their EU membership, keep the pound and the free travel area with the rest of the UK. When they find out they'll end up with the Euro and will need a passport to get into Cumbria I'm sure the appetite will wane.



David Cameron had already stated there would be a UK-wide EU referendum prior to the Scots indy ref in 2014, the only one being narrow-minded were the people who voted 'No' then but now want another chance because something happened they were already warned about and considered when voting the first time.

Other opinions are available.

 

[lovelyhead]

You've forgotten what we were debating there son. You claimed that the SNP 'accpeted' the first referendum result, yet only 3 months after it Salmond was already talking up the prospects of a second one. I wouldn't say that was 'accepting' the result would you?

Yes they did accept it. I don't remember them every challenging the result. Do you?

People are allowed to talk about anything they like. Just so happens the thing that Salmond was talking about has actually come to pass.

They won a mandate to ask the UK government for permission to ask the Scottish people a "once in a lifetime" question that none of them had any democratic say in before.

Scotland has never been pulled out of the EU against it's will before either. This will be a "once in a lifetime" for the Scottish people to choose whether they want to be in the EU or the UK.

Scottish Independence would be 100% guaranteed because we'd create a situation like Catalonia despite the fact Catalonia famously aren't independent? What???

Perhaps I could have phrased that better. If Westminster refused Scotland another referendum and took Scotland out of the EU against our will, support would for independence would soar. It would be clear that Scotland has a democratic deficit within the UK. Taxation without representation is tyranny.

Is that the UK you want to live in?

The referendum was a UK referendum, there was no official separate counting for the four countries of the UK.

I think you will find that there very much was separate counting for Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. I am not sure where you are getting that idea from.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

The view of the Scottish people should be respected in the first referendum because it was a vote only undertaken by the Scots on a specific issue relating to the Scots. The view of the Scots in this one should be respected but it shouldn't trump the rest of the UK's decision to leave the EU as, for the 1,000th time, this was UK VOTE not a Scottish one.

Having another Scottish Independence referendum in no way "trumps the rest of the UK's decision". England and Wales will get to leave the EU no matter what Scotland decides.

 

[estebanrey]

Other opinions are available.

Like? Sturgeon's already been told by the EU her dream of somehow retaining a membership she doesn't hold isn't possible.

Also, why would the EU want an independent Scotland (who would almost certainly be a net taker from the project) to retain the UK membership?

The reason the UK could avoid taking the Euro and not being part of Schengen is because the UK are a major economy and one of the members bank-rolling the thing...it's laughable to think the EU would view an intendant Scotland as a nation worth making so many concession to.

The only hope for the ironic EU loving but want "independence" lot in Scotland is that the EU are so determined to get one over of the UK they give Scotland the bells and whistles deal Sturgeon is falsely putting forward as a real possibility in a bid to break up the UK and 'teach us a lesson'.

But even if that happened, it wouldn't be long before the other small nations in the EU started getting ****** off with Scotland's "special deal".

 

[yonderblue]

Like? Sturgeon's already been told by the EU her dream of somehow retaining a membership she doesn't hold isn't possible.

Also, why would the EU want an independent Scotland (who would almost certainly be a net taker from the project) to retain the UK membership?

The reason the UK could avoid taking the Euro and not being part of Schengen is because the UK are a major economy and one of the members bank-rolling the thing...it's laughable to think the EU would view an intendant Scotland as a nation worth making so many concession to.

The only hope for the ironic EU loving but want "independence" lot in Scotland is that the EU are so determined to get one over of the UK they give Scotland the bells and whistles deal Sturgeon is falsely putting forward as a real possibility in a bid to break up the UK and 'teach us a lesson'.

But even if that happened, it wouldn't be long before the other small nations in the EU started getting ****** off with Scotland's "special deal".

Says you.

 

[Mulder]

Lord Aschcroft's polling methods don't appear to be detailed anywhere I could find on that web site. Please link if I'm missing it. You can interpret his findings in a number of ways. Read this article by The Independent for example which interprets Lord Aschcroft's poll differently to you.

That article you link to doesn't suggest immigration was the main reason leave voters voted the way they did. And the very same author, again writing in the Indy, wrote this , which concludes with "Yes, the people have spoken. But it’s a fallacy to assume that they spoke with a single voice."

"Those leave idiots just voted leave coz' of immigration" is an easy narrative for the any remainers who are still upset about the result to proclaim, but it isn't true.

Besides "taking back control" and "immigration control" are linked. You can't really control immigration without controlling legislation.

Conflating the argument much? By your logic, anyone voting in favour of the principle of "decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK" was voting to reduce immigration. Nah, there's a clear difference between 1) Thinking Britain should be a sovereign, self-determination nation like most other countries in the world, and 2) Wanting immigration brought down. I care about 1, not 2.

But if immigration wasn't an issue for you, your friends and apparently the majority of Leave voters, then is it the case that you would be happy with a future deal with the EU that gives the UK full control over its own laws, but where access to the single market carries the stipulation of free movement?

As above, i couldn't care less about freedom of movement, the UK needs migration, it's a big reason we're in the position we are today. I've said that on here the whole way through these threads. Besides, most people don't believe immigration will actually go down that much even though we voted leave, another reason suggesting immigration was not the key decider in how leave voters got to their decision.

 

[lovelyhead]

Like? Sturgeon's already been told by the EU her dream of somehow retaining a membership she doesn't hold isn't possible.

The First Minister is simply ruling out all possible options so that when it comes down to it, Scottish Independence is the only option to retain EU membership. You don't honestly think she would prefer to stay in the UK and EU rather than leaving the UK and joining the EU?

Also, why would the EU want an independent Scotland (who would almost certainly be a net taker from the project) to retain the UK membership?

The reason the UK could avoid taking the Euro and not being part of Schengen is because the UK are a major economy and one of the members bank-rolling the thing...it's laughable to think the EU would view an intendant Scotland as a nation worth making so many concession to.

The only hope for the ironic EU loving but want "independence" lot in Scotland is that the EU are so determined to get one over of the UK they give Scotland the bells and whistles deal Sturgeon is falsely putting forward as a real possibility in a bid to break up the UK and 'teach us a lesson'.

But even if that happened, it wouldn't be long before the other small nations in the EU started getting ****** off with Scotland's "special deal".

All I am getting from your posts is pure negativity towards Scotland. Why do you even want us to stay if you dislike us so much? Feels a lot like the attitude British colonists had towards the people of India when Britain ruled over them. It's ugly.

 

[estebanrey]

Yes they did accept it. I don't remember them every challenging the result. Do you?

Right, so when you said that the SNP accepted the result of the first referendum, you didn't mean they respected it by not immediately trying to find ways to re-run it and ignore the "one in a lifetime" promise made before-hand, you just mean they didn't put on tin foil hats and call conspiracy??

Well how democratic they are then

People are allowed to talk about anything they like. Just so happens the thing that Salmond was talking about has actually come to pass.

I agree people who a few weeks earlier talked about "once in a lifetime" without stipulation are free to completely contradict themselves later...and I'm free to call them out on it.

Scotland has never been pulled out of the EU against it's will before either. This will be a "once in a lifetime" for the Scottish people to choose whether they want to be in the EU or the UK.

So long as the Scottish people know that being in the EU will involve joining as a new country and having to abide by all the rules that come with that.

Perhaps I could have phrased that better. If Westminster refused Scotland another referendum and took Scotland out of the EU against our will, support would for independence would soar.

That maybe so, support for the death penalty after a Child Killer is caught soars but it doesn't mean we rush out and bring back hanging.

It would be clear that Scotland has a democratic deficit within the UK.

You're taking the ****, right? Remind me again how many seats in Westminister the Scots get to elect in relation to their population size?

Democratic Deficit...LOL

Taxation without representation is tyranny.

So why do you want to be in the EU then??????

I think you will find that there very much was separate counting for Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. I am not sure where you are getting that idea from.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

I said "OFFICIALLY", just because the BBC have broken to votes down into country, gender, income range and what paper people buy doesn't mean there has to be any official recognition of those groups.

Having another Scottish Independence referendum in no way "trumps the rest of the UK's decision". England and Wales will get to leave the EU no matter what Scotland decides.

So will Scotland. The decision, should the UK government allow it, would be whether you want to join the EU as a new in pendent country.

Scotland cannot 'stay' in the EU, unless Theresa May decides to not invoke article 50 or there is a 2nd UK EU referendum,

 

[estebanrey]

The First Minister is simply ruling out all possible options so that when it comes down to it, Scottish Independence is the only option to retain EU membership. You don't honestly think she would prefer to stay in the UK and EU rather than leaving the UK and joining the EU?

You cannot retain anything! What are you retaining exactly? It's the UK that holds the membership not Scotland.

All I am getting from your posts is pure negativity towards Scotland. Why do you even want us to stay if you dislike us so much? Feels a lot like the attitude British colonists had towards the people of India when Britain ruled over them. It's ugly.

It's a reality check my friend. Stop playing the man and attack the ball, do you honestly believe the EU are likely to treat an independent Scotland the same as the UK (despite not being the same)?

If so why?

 

[lovelyhead]

You cannot retain anything! What are you retaining exactly? It's the UK that holds the membership not Scotland.




It's a reality check my friend. Stop playing the man and attack the ball, do you honestly believe the EU are likely to treat an independent Scotland the same as the UK (despite not being the same)?

If so why?

Why do you want Scotland to stay in the UK?

 

[estebanrey]

Why do you want Scotland to stay in the UK?

Tradition (300+ year old Union)
We share language and culture
We have a land border/don't want to take a passport to move between them
Same currency
Andy Murray

Now, stop deflecting and answer my question. Do you honestly believe an independent Scotland will be able to inherit or create the deal the UK currently have with the EU for itself despite not being in the same economic league as the UK?

 

[Stretch]

Don't you agree then that the Scottish people should now get the chance to decide which of those two options they would rather pursue? Would that not be the most democratic thing to do?

The last few weeks have left me pretty disillusioned with democracy tbh. What the country needs (and has needed), at least in the short terms is some quality leadership. The EU referendum was a dereliction of leadership imo, and another referendum anytime soon would be the same.

I do think that this issue could potentially be significant enough to warrant Scotland having another referendum, however I don't think now is the time for that debate.

Bringing yet more uncertainty to the table right now is not going to do any part of the UK any favours. I actually think Nicola should have re-framed from discussion about a second referendum until at least the terms of withdraw are agreed. The SNP and Scotland should stay and fight for the best terms or carry on making the case to remain.

Unfortunately, there are many people in the pro-independence camp who are not interested in what deal the UK gets, or if there maybe a chance to salvage the UKs EU membership entirely. They are more concerned about independence for Scotland, and will pursue that interest at any cost.

For internal EU political reasons, it's very unlikely Scotland will be given an option simply to remain in the EU. The most sensible way forward for Scotland is to hold tight, play its part in doing what they believe is in the best interest of the UK, and if it doesn't work out, they will probably have to leave the UK and apply for EU membership if that's what they want.

Why do you want Scotland to stay in the UK?

That's a really easy question to answer. And it's the same reason I feel we should stay in the EU. It's in our best collective interest to continue something which by all accounts has worked remarkable well for a whole range of reasons. Despite what the antagonists would like to have you believe.

 

[lovelyhead]

Tradition (300+ year old Union)
We share language and culture
We have a land border/don't want to take a passport to move between them
Same currency
Andy Murray

Tradition - Nothing will change after Independence
Language and Culture - Nothing will change after Independence
Border - Ireland and Northern Ireland share a border with no passport necessary
Currency - The UK manages to trade with the EU just fine using different currencies
Andy Murray - Supports Independence

So basically you would deny Scots the chance to decide the path they take in the world for your personal convenience. Great.

 

[yonderblue]

Tradition (300+ year old Union)
We share language and culture
We have a land border/don't want to take a passport to move between them
Same currency
Andy Murray

Is that it. Better Together should have you on the next UKOK campaign, these are some real sellers, I would give Blair McDougall a phone/email now.

 

[estebanrey]

....

Now, stop deflecting and answer my question. Do you honestly believe an independent Scotland will be able to inherit or create the deal the UK currently have with the EU for itself despite not being in the same economic league as the UK?

Please answer my question or I will be reporting you for trolling.

 

[lovelyhead]

The last few weeks have left me pretty disillusioned with democracy tbh. What the country needs (and has needed), at least in the short terms is some quality leadership. The EU referendum was a dereliction of leadership imo, and another referendum anytime soon would be the same.

I do think that this issue could potentially be significant enough to warrant Scotland having another referendum, however I don't think now is the time for that debate.

Bringing yet more uncertainty to the table right now is not going to do any part of the UK any favours. I actually think Nicola should have re-framed form discussion about second referendum until at least until the terms of withdraw are agreed. The SNP and Scotland should stay and fight for the best terms or carry on making the case to remain.

Unfortunately, there are many people in the pro-independence camp who are not interested in what deal the UK gets, or if there maybe a chance to salvage the UKs EU membership entirely. They are more concerned about independence for Scotland, and will pursue that interest at any cost.

For internal EU political reasons, it's very unlikely Scotland will be given an option simply to remain in the EU. The most sensible way forward for Scotland is to hold tight, play its part in doing what they believe is in the best interest of the UK, and if it doesn't work out, they will probably have to leave the UK and apply for EU membership if that's what they want.

Although I don't agree with everything you write, at least your opinion is reasonable and rational. Unlike others here who simply don't like the Scots.