Brexit thread - what happens next

[Skunkworks]

If the leavers are so convinced that they still hold the majority view, why are they, to every man, woman and dog, so set against a 2nd referendum?

No backsies clause.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Apart from the fact there's no definition to "leaving"

Well there is - you're either a member or you are not. If you are a member, then you leave, you are not a member anymore. It's that simple.

There are, however, numerous scenarios where you can retain many of the benefits. However this doesn't make you a member. If you leave the EU and join the EEA you've still left the EU.

 

[Cern]

We couldn't get any real reform, if we had remain would have won, so I don't see how we'd reform with an even weaker hand after voting to remain.

I'm not sure what you mean with your 2nd paragraph. If 'Brexit means Brexit', then 'Remain means Remain' would have meant the opposite, but would be still as polarising.

If Cameron was never going to get any change, then why believe someone else would? They weren't going to reform and were continuing to march towards ever closer union. We didn't get to vote on the change from a trade area to a political union either, so a ref was long overdue. People wanted a vote on Europe.

When you say framed, do you mean framed so it was almost impossible to leave? A wishy washy question would not have satisfied anyone and would have been seen as the establishment trying to fix it.

As for the EU and referendums, it has a long history of ignoring the ones it didn't like, so I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them to take heed of a vote for change that still left us in the EU.

I don't think anyone wants or wanted neverendum, unless your Nicola Sturgeon of course.

Because Cameron was weak and complacent. He didn't force the issue with the EU because he didn't feel he needed to, he smugly assumed everyone would vote Remain just because he advised it or because Osbourne threatened punishment if they didn't. Totally detached from reality and totally ill judged.

A stronger leader, backed by a strong mandate for reform could have demanded more from the EU and likely won it. I actually don't think there's a lot of stomach throughout Europe for more federalism, there's already moves to step back from that, even before Brexit and certainly since. Also, uncontrolled immigration is causing issues in many countries and full free movement is likely to be re-thought anyway.

Don't forget the UK already opted out of LOTS of aspects of the EU, including monetary union and fuller political integration. Plus also the rebate and other concessions. The EU was already well aware of our semi-detached position and willing to tolerate it. We already had the best of both worlds, just too blind to recognise it.

 

[Freakbro]

Asking the same group set of people whether they are sure they wish to go through a major and irreversible change is actually a smart idea that is incorporated in a lot of things in life.

Format C: Y/N

Are you sure Y/N

 

[do_ron_ron]

Well there is - you're either a member or you are not. If you are a member, then you leave, you are not a member anymore. It's that simple.

There are, however, numerous scenarios where you can retain many of the benefits. However this doesn't make you a member. If you leave the EU and join the EEA you've still left the EU.

The EEA Agreement provides for the inclusion of EU legislation in all policy areas of the Single Market. This covers the four freedoms, i.e. the free movement of goods, services, persons and capital, as well as competition and state aid rules, but also the following horizontal policies: consumer protection, company law, environment, social policy, statistics. In addition, the EEA Agreement provides for cooperation in several flanking policies such as research and technological development, education, training and youth, employment, tourism, culture, civil protection, enterprise, entrepreneurship and small and medium-sized enterprises.

 

[Mr Jack]

I am actually excited for the possiblities Brexit may bring. If we have a strong PM and I think we now do. Then this could work out very nicely for GB.

Why do people want to stay isolated in the EU?

Oh dear. Voting to leave the EU is going to make us more isolated not less. We've literally voted to have less global connection and influence.

 

[robfosters]

Don't forget the UK already opted out of LOTS of aspects of the EU, including monetary union and fuller political integration. Plus also the rebate and other concessions. The EU was already well aware of our semi-detached position and willing to tolerate it. We already had the best of both worlds, just too blind to recognise it.

A big percentage of the leave voters couldn't give a crap about that, it was all about freedom of movement, which Cameron failed spectacularly with.

 

[Cern]

Because we've won already, despite all the odds and the ENTIRE establishment against us. Do you think we'd trust the ENTIRE ESTABLISHMENT with a replay?

Yet you're entrusting the "establishment" to negotiate Brexit? Boris, David Davis, Liam Fox, Theresa May et al aren't the establishment then?

I love how you think you've "won". Won what? Won a right wing government who will no longer need to be reined in by all that 'awful EU red tape' and lefty liberal human rights? Won the right to more zero hours contracts? Won the right to less civil rights, more surveillance society, more austerity, more inequality? Have fun with that then.

Sorry if I don't share your definition of "winning".

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Both sides, and everyone in the country understood what it meant in reality, we were staying or we were leaving.

Judging by the fact you ignored the main question in the previous post I'm assuming you, yourself have no idea how it would be a major erosion of democracy.

To address your point. that has nothing to do with whether the vote is legally binding or not.

 

[Martini1991]

Well there is - you're either a member or you are not. If you are a member, then you leave, you are not a member anymore. It's that simple.

There are, however, numerous scenarios where you can retain many of the benefits. However this doesn't make you a member. If you leave the EU and join the EEA you've still left the EU.

Don't these scenarios have conditions, conditions that people voted leave to get away from?

 

[Darujhistan]

Because Cameron was weak and complacent. He didn't force the issue with the EU because he didn't feel he needed to, he smugly assumed everyone would vote Remain just because he advised it or because Osbourne threatened punishment if they didn't. Totally detached from reality and totally ill judged.

A stronger leader, backed by a strong mandate for reform could have demanded more from the EU and likely won it. I actually don't think there's a lot of stomach throughout Europe for more federalism, there's already moves to step back from that, even before Brexit and certainly since. Also, uncontrolled immigration is causing issues in many countries and full free movement is likely to be re-thought anyway.

Don't forget the UK already opted out of LOTS of aspects of the EU, including monetary union and fuller political integration. Plus also the rebate and other concessions. The EU was already well aware of our semi-detached position and willing to tolerate it. We already had the best of both worlds, just too blind to recognise it.

You've no idea whether he forced the issue or not. I'll give you smug, after all everything had been handed to him on a plate since birth. If they're retreating from more Federalism then that a lot more to do with Brexit, without it they'd have just carried on regardless.

If they'd have been satisfied with a trading area to begin with then none of this would have happened, all i've heard from the EU is free movement is non-negotiable. However you phrase immigration, and not just from within the EU it is causing so many problems there's going to have to be a re-think, maybe we've done the EU a favour pushing them along with it.

We'd have seen how willing they were to tolerate it when we'd voted to remain.

 

[dowie]

Yet you're entrusting the "establishment" to negotiate Brexit? Boris, David Davis, Liam Fox, Theresa May et al aren't the establishment then?

I love how you think you've "won". Won what? Won a right wing government who will no longer need to be reined in by all that 'awful EU red tape' and lefty liberal human rights? Won the right to more zero hours contracts? Won the right to less civil rights, more surveillance society, more austerity, more inequality? Have fun with that then.

Sorry if I don't share your definition of "winning".

where is this more austerity coming from, they're rolling back austerity

some of the rest is rather dodgy speculation too

 

[ReltonBFD]

Yet you're entrusting the "establishment" to negotiate Brexit? Boris, David Davis, Liam Fox, Theresa May et al aren't the establishment then?

I love how you think you've "won". Won what? Won a right wing government who will no longer need to be reined in by all that 'awful EU red tape' and lefty liberal human rights? Won the right to more zero hours contracts? Won the right to less civil rights, more surveillance society, more austerity, more inequality? Have fun with that then.

Sorry if I don't share your definition of "winning".

Lol'd

Get a grip

 

[Darujhistan]

Yet you're entrusting the "establishment" to negotiate Brexit? Boris, David Davis, Liam Fox, Theresa May et al aren't the establishment then?

I love how you think you've "won". Won what? Won a right wing government who will no longer need to be reined in by all that 'awful EU red tape' and lefty liberal human rights? Won the right to more zero hours contracts? Won the right to less civil rights, more surveillance society, more austerity, more inequality? Have fun with that then.

Sorry if I don't share your definition of "winning".

Inevitably i'm trusting the establishment, there's no other choice in this country or any other.

I have won, you've lost. You just can't accept it. The rest of your post is just hyperbole.

You could always move to the EU if prefer life within it. Have fun with that and the Euro. You clearly think its amazing, when are you off?

 

[Cern]

You've no idea whether he forced the issue or not. I'll give you smug, after all everything had been handed to him on a plate since birth. If they're retreating from more Federalism then that a lot more to do with Brexit, without it they'd have just carried on regardless.

If they'd have been satisfied with a trading area to begin with then none of this would have happened, all i've heard from the EU is free movement is non-negotiable. However you phrase immigration, and not just from within the EU it is causing so many problems there's going to have to be a re-think, maybe we've done the EU a favour pushing them along with it.

We'd have seen how willing they were to tolerate it when we'd voted to remain.

I agree that Brexit has changed the debate within the EU. But I personally think it could have been changed by Remaining and being more forceful about it because I think there is common ground across a broad range of countries on these issues. But the Referndum would have needed to be more than a simple Leave/Remain for that to happen.

It will be more than ironic if Brexit causes the EU to rethink the things which were the UK's biggest issues and we're then stuck on the outside looking into a better EU while muddling along on our own. A travesty in fact.

 

[Darujhistan]

Lol'd

Get a grip

For all the waffle it's all just throwing toys out the pram from the remainers.

 

[Martini1991]

Inevitably i'm trusting the establishment, there's no other choice in this country or any other.

I have won, you've lost. You just can't accept it. The rest of your post is just hyperbole.

You could always move to the EU if prefer life within it. Have fun with that and the Euro. You clearly think its amazing, when are you off?

That's not the right attitude to have.

 

[Cern]

Inevitably i'm trusting the establishment, there's no other choice in this country or any other.

I have won, you've lost. You just can't accept it. The rest of your post is just hyperbole.

You could always move to the EU if prefer life within it. Have fun with that and the Euro. You clearly think its amazing, when are you off?

Ah, are you one of those who has been asking everyone with an EU passport "when are you off"?

 

[Darujhistan]

That's not the right attitude to have.

I don't think whining about the result is the right attitude to have either.

 

[Darujhistan]

Ah, are you one of those who has been asking everyone with an EU passport "when are you off"?

Nope, just wondering when you're off to the EU. Anyone who wants to stay and who is legally entitled to is more than welcome as far as I'm concerned.

You on the other hand think there's no future here but think the EU is marvellous so it seems to make perfect sense to me that you'd want to move there.

No?