Brexit thread - what happens next

Burnsy2023 · 25 Jul 2016 at 16:54

deuse said:
Are you going to give a straight yes or no? lets say the results was the same but stay won.

I wouldn't support any referendums to leave the EU based on a simple majority. That is a stupid system.

deuse · 25 Jul 2016 at 16:56

Burnsy2023 said:
I wouldn't support any referendums to leave the EU based on a simple majority. That is a stupid system.

Did you even read my post? want to try again?

Originally Posted by deuse View Post
So if the stay lot would have won you would back another referendum?

Mr Badger · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:02

deuse said:
So if the stay lot would have won you would back another referendum?

The point I'm making (as have lots of other people) is that there shouldn't have been a referendum on this in the first place. It's painfully obvious that it was all political game playing by the Tories based on the assumption that the economic case for staying in was strong and the risks of leaving were high, so they were safe as common sense would prevail...

Mr Jack · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:06

Does anyone imagine that if there had been a 52-48 win for Remain that Leave voters would have given up? That UKIP would have packed up its bags and gone home? No, of course not. On the contrary, Farage was calling for a second referendum if that happened even before the referendum result was known.

Mr Jack · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:07

Mr Badger said:
The point I'm making (as have lots of other people) is that there shouldn't have been a referendum on this in the first place. It's painfully obvious that it was all political game playing by the Tories based on the assumption that the economic case for staying in was strong and the risks of leaving were high, so they were safe as common sense would prevail...

Yup, this whole affair was supposed to be a means for the Tories to lance the boil of their internal conflicts and the UKIP threat. It's probably the biggest example of a Prime Minister putting petty party interests ahead of the country's interests that I can think of.

deuse · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:07

Mr Badger said:
The point I'm making (as have lots of other people) is that there shouldn't have been a referendum on this in the first place. It's painfully obvious that it was all political game playing by the Tories based on the assumption that the economic case for staying in was strong and the risks of leaving were high, so they were safe as common sense would prevail...

Well there has been a referendum(promised for years). So I don't see why all the moaning.
Think forward or be left behind.

Burnsy2023 · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:12

deuse said:
Did you even read my post? want to try again?

No, I would not support another referendum if remain won, not because one side won and the other should move on, but because the whole concept was a political football and flawed from the start.

deuse said:
Think forward or be left behind.

I'd rather move to Scotland and be left behind rather than entertain stupidity.

Darujhistan · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:18

I'd rather move to Scotland and be left behind rather than entertain stupidity.

When are you moving?

Skunkworks · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:23

Please, for the love of all that is good, learn to use the quote button!

Darujhistan · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:29

Skunkworks said:
Please, for the love of all that is good, learn to use the quote button!

I'll decide when I use the quote button, thanks for your concern though.

Cern · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:36

Darujhistan said:
Right, and I bet you'd have been on here complaining about the ref had your side won...

Why weren't they voting on the matter at hand?

There was no realistic away of leaving the EU via a General Election - but you knew that.

How convenient that your view of democracy also ensures the continuation of your status quo, maybe we should have left the EU without a referendum as we only joined the common market after a referendum to begin with?

I think the referendum was a fantastic example of mass democracy, far more representative than any GE, when the only choice is more of the same, the same which no doubt suits you fine.

All i'm hearing is another sore loser.

"Your side", "sore loser". This isn't a football match, why reduce it to that level of childish taunting? This is precisely why a referendum is never a good idea, it simplifies complex issues into divisive binary choices that can be kicked around like a political football and easily hijacked.

And it's also why it's going to be very hard to move on and reach some kind of middle ground between both sides because there's this pathetic "you lost, we won" attitude combined with a somewhat more sinister threat of "do what we want or people will rise up and there'll be trouble" that's kicking about too. I'm sure our new government lurching to the right will happily use that as an excuse to remove more civil rights, once they're done with removing all the ones granted by the EU.

To say Remainers only favour the status quo is a perfect example of this gross simplification. You don't know this. Many Remainers, myself included, would like to see the EU reformed. But we would prefer to do it from WITHIN, sat around a table and negotiating from a position of strength. Not petulantly storming out and hurling insults at the very people / countries we are now going to have to negotiate with for a favourable deal and most importantly STILL trade, co-exist and co-operate with in the future. Still at least Boris who was responsible for a lot of these insults will have to face up to some of the mess he's created.

It's entirely possible to change things via a General Election although I concede it's unlikely with the current system of government we have. That's something I've long wished we could change. But that's for another discussion.

And no, I don't think entering the EU on a referendum was a good idea in the first place, but that's long in the past and just because we entered the EU on this basis doesn't mean it's right to leave it that way. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Skunkworks · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:46

Cern said:
..."do what we want or people will rise up and there'll be trouble"...

A more accurate way of putting it would be to obey the result of democracy or the people may rise up and cause trouble. The reason democracy works is becuase even if people don't get their way, they feel like they had a fair say. This is why the 2nd ref, or ignore the ref stuff would be far more damaging than anything Brexit could possibly do.

Burnsy2023 · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:49

Darujhistan said:
I'll decide when I use the quote button, thanks for your concern though.

I'll reply to your posts when you learn to use the quote button.

Darujhistan · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:52

Cern said:
"Your side", "sore loser". This isn't a football match, why reduce it to that level of childish taunting? This is precisely why a referendum is never a good idea, it simplifies complex issues into divisive binary choices that can be kicked around like a political football and easily hijacked.

And it's also why it's going to be very hard to move on and reach some kind of middle ground between both sides because there's this pathetic "you lost, we won" attitude combined with a somewhat more sinister threat of "do what we want or people will rise up and there'll be trouble" that's kicking about too. I'm sure our new government lurching to the right will happily use that as an excuse to remove more civil rights, once they're done with removing all the ones granted by the EU.

To say Remainers only favour the status quo is a perfect example of this gross simplification. You don't know this. Many Remainers, myself included, would like to see the EU reformed. But we would prefer to do it from WITHIN, sat around a table and negotiating from a position of strength. Not petulantly storming out and hurling insults at the very people / countries we are now going to have to negotiate with for a favourable deal and most importantly STILL trade, co-exist and co-operate with in the future. Still at least Boris who was responsible for a lot of these insults will have to face up to some of the mess he's created.

It's entirely possible to change things via a General Election although I concede it's unlikely with the current system of government we have. That's something I've long wished we could change. But that's for another discussion.

And no, I don't think entering the EU on a referendum was a good idea in the first place, but that's long in the past and just because we entered the EU on this basis doesn't mean it's right to leave it that way. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Football match? It's not me crying about the result, or how that result came to be. That sounds like what happens after a football match to me.

So if a referendum is never a good idea, you'd agree with leaving the EU as the referendum on it was never a good idea in the first place right? Then we could start from scratch...

Remainers clearly did prefer the status quo as they voted for it.

We tried reforming the EU from the inside, have you forgotten already? I'm not surprised as Cameron came back with nothing.

It's not entirely possible to change leave the EU as no party with any chance of winning a GE in the foreseeable future supports leaving the EU.

No surprise that you give preference to a referendum from over 40 years ago to one from 1 month ago, the 1973 one is certainly more relevant to future...

Chuk_Chuk · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:53

Skunkworks said:
A more accurate way of putting it would be to obey the result of democracy or the people may rise up and cause trouble. The reason democracy works is becuase even if people don't get their way, they feel like they had a fair say. This is why the 2nd ref, or ignore the ref stuff would be far more damaging than anything Brexit could possibly do.

No it won't, not even close.

Darujhistan · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:53

Burnsy2023 said:
I'll reply to your posts when you learn to use the quote button.

When are you moving to Scotland?

Burnsy2023 · 25 Jul 2016 at 17:55

Darujhistan said:
When are you moving to Scotland?

If Scotland stay in the EU for whatever reason and England leaves, then I'll move unless there's a very good reason not to. I imagine it'll be perhaps a year after England leave or so.

TBH, I have a lot of love for Scotland, so it wouldn't be a particularly difficult decision.

Darujhistan · 25 Jul 2016 at 18:00

Burnsy2023 said:
If Scotland stay in the EU for whatever reason and England leaves, then I'll move unless there's a very good reason not to. I imagine it'll be perhaps a year after England leave or so.

TBH, I have a lot of love for Scotland, so it wouldn't be a particularly difficult decision.

The Euro might be a very good reason.

I wish you well, Scotland has a terrible climate (bit different to Southampton's), but much cheaper than the South Coast I'd have thought though, and very beautiful.

Burnsy2023 · 25 Jul 2016 at 18:03

Darujhistan said:
The Euro might be a very good reason.

I wish you well, Scotland has a terrible climate (bit different from Southampton i'd have thought), but much cheaper than the South Coast I'd have thought though,and very beautiful.

A climate I'm much happier in. 16C and drizzly is perfect for me.

I think I'd be worried about the weak Sterling and how little I'll get against the Euro if I have to exchange. I'm not worried about the stability of the Euro as a whole though.

Darujhistan · 25 Jul 2016 at 18:06

Burnsy2023 said:
A climate I'm much happier in. 16C and drizzly is perfect for me.

I think I'd be worried about the weak Sterling and how little I'll get against the Euro if I have to exchange. I'm not worried about the stability of the Euro as a whole though.

I really don't mind the trad British climate either. I can't wait for Autumn and Winter country walks round the Peak District.

You'd get much much for your property 'pound' up there though surely?