Brexit thread - what happens next

[Amp34]

But no one has provided any evidence that if we voted again the result would be different, what we have is conjecture and debates about broken promises, both of which miss the point in my opinion and are also irrelevant because we won't have another vote so again we are now into a discussion of terms but those terms are relating to how we leave not how we might change things so we actually stay.

Because I don't think there is really anyone arguing for another vote.

The "We won, you lost so shut up" crowd are basically just complaining at people voicing their discontent about the way the vote went.

There is still time for those unhappy with the way the vote went to influence the way the government go in the negotiations, which is my point.

 

[Housey]

"Out" is not defined therefore it's not a set outcome, there will be things that people who voted leave will consider to not be their version of "out" the question was yes no but there's hundreds of interpretations of what that means - you want to over simplify it to make it into sides and winners and losers - it's just.not possible

The terms are crucial and unable to be separated from the question - I'm astounded that people have voted with no definition, manifesto or focus on the actual realities of the outcome

Firstly I am not seeking to make anyone losers or winners. I don't need to associate with others to feel happy or sad...to be clear. I've not said anything about losing or winning as I don't take other peoples opinions of much value to my daily life, not that I dismiss them, I just don't lose sleep over them. I also don't see any value in debating the details as they will form over time, my argument is we are heading out the EU and what I see people now saying who voted remain is "well that doesn't really mean anything because we don't know what leave means, it might still mean remain stuff". We if you believe that, why is it so hard to grasp that leave isn't going to wreck the country as doom mongers would make you believe. We had 2 global wars and now you all have Xboxes, iPhones, cars, houses, clothes, food, holidays. My point is you need perspective, life will sort itself, it ALWAYS does, so stop with the woe is me debates of "you've ruined my future" because at 50 I don't care, that's your problem and now step up and start to be involved in the future instead of sitting on your arses not voting as the numbers suggest many did in the Mr/Mrs early 20 something demographic. You'll be running the place when i've long gone, so deal with it then and step the **** up and do something about it, not moan on forums about it.

You being astounded by people having no clear formulate definition is just because that's your mindset. It's not the first time Ive heard it expressed and it won't be the last. It is often followed by language like council estate people, ill educated and other such comments but again that says more about the commenter. We have millions of people who believe themselves to be more erudite, informed, educated and all seeing because they are not foolish enough to take a risk, to take a flyer, to accept that some people just wanted something different, whatever that might be. Can't expect them to get, they are not built that way but to put people like me down and many people like me, educated, wealthy, self made, business founders is somewhat foolish as many of you work for those people and have all those things because of people like them. It will amaze you that outside London city (where I work) many business leaders wanted out, many highly educated wealthy people wanted out.

My point is it will all sort itself out and if for a few years we create some pain so what, it's a first world worry, not something that will wreck anyones lives. Focus on what's next, not on what we could do to make it like it was because we all feel comfier that way. Tough, country wants something different whatever that might be.

Exciting times isn't it

 

[Mr Badger]

Because I don't think there is really anyone arguing for another vote.

The "We won, you lost so shut up" crowd are basically just complaining at people voicing their discontent about the way the vote went.

There is still time for those unhappy with the way the vote went to influence the way the government go in the negotiations, which is my point.

Exactly. If a magic Brexit deal can be achieved that most people are actually happy with then fair enough. However, if the government can't get a deal that is better/good/acceptable than our current arrangements, should they really plough on regardless? It's all very well to say "We won, we're leaving" but surely not if that means a recession and falling standard of living, closure of your local industry/hospital/school or whatever, benefit cuts, less money to maintain the roads etc. (#project fear/reality).

 

[Housey]

Because I don't think there is really anyone arguing for another vote.

There are many who are.

The "We won, you lost so shut up" crowd are basically just complaining at people voicing their discontent about the way the vote went.

That's childish comments, ignore them is my advice.

There is still time for those unhappy with the way the vote went to influence the way the government go in the negotiations, which is my point.

To achieve what? Another vote, a different result or some terms? Terms were always going to be a point of negotiation. Why so many of the remain campaigners didn't create (in their terms) a worst case plan is perhaps telling as to why many people have had enough of Westminster "our way we know best" politics followed by an Oh **** we lost, what now, never thought we would lose as they always do what we tell them to do.

 

[the_r_sole]

I'm astounded that people have voted with no definition, manifesto or focus on the actual realities of the outcome


You clearly didn't understand the referendum from the outset then.

You're right... The last referendum I voted in there were manifestos, in depth discussion on what the potential outcomes would be, meaningful debates on the pros and cons.... This one was a media circus where no one bothered to think it through and people still voted for it!

 

[StriderX]

Its non binding though. no one needed to make "plans".

 

[Housey]

Exactly. If a magic Brexit deal can be achieved that most people are actually happy with then fair enough. However, if the government can't get a deal that is better/good/acceptable than our current arrangements, should they really plough on regardless? It's all very well to say "We won, we're leaving" but surely not if that means a recession and falling standard of living, closure of your local industry/hospital/school or whatever, benefit cuts, less money to maintain the roads etc. (#project fear/reality).

It doesn't work that way, it works the way you don't want it to work. However if it makes you feel better we will get some terms that are roughly the same. Some things will be better, some worse, but it will be the same in many ways because its easier for everyone that way...

 

[Housey]

You're right... The last referendum I voted in there were manifestos, in depth discussion on what the potential outcomes would be, meaningful debates on the pros and cons.... This one was a media circus where no one bothered to think it through and people still voted for it!

Everything anyone needed was there to make an informed decision. It's just that people are annoyed that the media spoon fed them horse **** made up by both sides and people are too stupid to do anything more than listen to their telly box.

I agree it was a media circus, full of spin, miss truths and conjecture painted as fact but there was still plenty their to make an informed or risk based decision.

 

[the_r_sole]

Firstly I am not seeking to make anyone losers or winners. I don't need to associate with others to feel happy or sad...to be clear. I've not said anything about losing or winning as I don't take other peoples opinions of much value to my daily life, not that I dismiss them, I just don't lose sleep over them. I also don't see any value in debating the details as they will form over time, my argument is we are heading out the EU and what I see people now saying who voted remain is "well that doesn't really mean anything because we don't know what leave means, it might still mean remain stuff". We if you believe that, why is it so hard to grasp that leave isn't going to wreck the country as doom mongers would make you believe. We had 2 global wars and now you all have Xboxes, iPhones, cars, houses, clothes, food, holidays. My point is you need perspective, life will sort itself, it ALWAYS does, so stop with the woe is me debates of "you've ruined my future" because at 50 I don't care, that's your problem and now step up and start to be involved in the future instead of sitting on your arses not voting as the numbers suggest many did in the Mr/Mrs early 20 something demographic. You'll be running the place when i've long gone, so deal with it then and step the **** up and do something about it, not moan on forums about it.

You being astounded by people having no clear formulate definition is just because that's your mindset. It's not the first time Ive heard it expressed and it won't be the last. It is often followed by language like council estate people, ill educated and other such comments but again that says more about the commenter. We have millions of people who believe themselves to be more erudite, informed, educated and all seeing because they are not foolish enough to take a risk, to take a flyer, to accept that some people just wanted something different, whatever that might be. Can't expect them to get, they are not built that way but to put people like me down and many people like me, educated, wealthy, self made, business founders is somewhat foolish as many of you work for those people and have all those things because of people like them. It will amaze you that outside London city (where I work) many business leaders wanted out, many highly educated wealthy people wanted out.

My point is it will all sort itself out and if for a few years we create some pain so what, it's a first world worry, not something that will wreck anyones lives. Focus on what's next, not on what we could do to make it like it was because we all feel comfier that way. Tough, country wants something different whatever that might be.

Exciting times isn't it

You've completely made up a back story for me thanks... The attitude that "it will all sort itself out" is quote frankly ridiculous, given you're such a well educated, self made business leader or whatever nonsense, that must mean that I'm not?

If you don't know what you are voting for and happy to accept that my mind boggles

 

[Housey]

Its non binding though. no one needed to make "plans".

So why is the thread so long, none of it means anything, we can still do what we want, all bets are off, we have some semantics. If only REAL life was that easy...

 

[Skunkworks]

As someone mentioned earlier it's an opinion poll it holds no legal power.

Yes GE are legally binding. Also I think in some countries a second GE can be called if results are close/under the right conditions.

However to answer you qestion with respect to the United Kingdom and the point that I made which I quote:
Firstly GE are reversible hence they occur every 5 years.

Secondly, exiting from the EU will force major changes to legislation across a wide range topics/subject matters in the United Kingdom and will affect everyone in the country to varying degrees. GE generally do not have such an effect on the country. Technically speaking the EU referendum has a bigger affect than your average GE.

And if the are you sure ref returns a Brexit vote again we have an are you really sure ref? Or if it returns 52/48 Remain we'll have an are you sure vote again on that? You see how quickly this gets into ridiculous territory?

I think you need to make peace with this and stop lobbying for democratic votes to be ignored, lest someone starts lobbying to have your vote ignored.

Also poor attempt at a snide remark.

I'm going easy on you because you're new.

 

[Housey]

You've completely made up a back story for me thanks... The attitude that "it will all sort itself out" is quote frankly ridiculous, given you're such a well educated, self made business leader or whatever nonsense, that must mean that I'm not?

If you don't know what you are voting for and happy to accept that my mind boggles

Im 100% clear I what I voted for thanks. And I have not made any story for you, I just quoted you and painted a broader picture, I am not aiming anything at you, Ive no idea who/what you are. You suggested I wanted a winner or loser argument, I corrected that.

 

[StriderX]

So why is the thread so long, none of it means anything, we can still do what we want, all bets are off, we have some semantics. If only REAL life was that easy...

Because people like to moan, unnecessarily about things personal to them without realising just how morally deficient it is when 90% of the planet suffers.

 

[Housey]

Because people like to moan, unnecessarily about things personal to them without realising just how morally deficient it is when 90% of the planet suffers.

True that.

 

[Amp34]

To achieve what? Another vote, a different result or some terms? Terms were always going to be a point of negotiation. Why so many of the remain campaigners didn't create (in their terms) a worst case plan is perhaps telling as to why many people have had enough of Westminster "our way we know best" politics followed by an Oh **** we lost, what now, never thought we would lose as they always do what we tell them to do.

To persuade the government to move one way or the other during negotiations.

I'm pretty certain the government haven't decided exactly what they want yet and will listen to the population at least in part when deciding where the lines are. If all they hear are people wanting no free movement/singe market etc. then it may well move their position further away from the EU. If they hear many people campaigning for the continuation of free movement and how important access to the free market is then they may well move towards aiming for continued close ties with the EU (but still out).

There is a long way to go before A50 is enacted, let alone the negotiations. The referendum was just the start.

 

[Cern]

My point is it will all sort itself out and if for a few years we create some pain so what, it's a first world worry, not something that will wreck anyones lives. Focus on what's next, not on what we could do to make it like it was because we all feel comfier that way. Tough, country wants something different whatever that might be.

Exciting times isn't it

It has the potential to wreck a lot of peoples lives if not handled properly. I stress potential. Does this mean we shouldn't take the risk? Not necessarily, life is about risk. But there's calculated risk and there's irresponsible risk. This sails dangerously close to the latter. Don't cheapen the risk by using lazy terms like "first world worry".

I totally get that the country wants something different and that for a lot of people things are so **** they want anything other than what we currently have, even if it risks making things worse. But plenty of Remainers are in exactly the same boat, they just differ in that they don't feel that taking a wrecking ball to the situation and hoping something good might come of it is an acceptable risk. And in some cases they also don't agree that the EU is the root cause of many of the problems we face anyway.

 

[Housey]

To persuade the government to move one way or the other during negotiations.

I'm pretty certain the government haven't decided exactly what they want yet and will listen to the population at least in part when deciding where the lines are. If all they hear are people wanting no free movement/singe market etc. then it may well move their position further away from the EU. If they hear many people campaigning for the continuation of free movement and how important access to the free market is then they may well move towards aiming for continued close ties with the EU (but still out).

There is a long way to go before A50 is enacted, let alone the negotiations. The referendum was just the start.

I agree we are at the start and there is lots of discussion and clarification to take place but we have started the leaving of the EU and I do not see that changing.

 

[Housey]

It has the potential to wreck a lot of peoples lives if not handled properly. I stress potential. Does this mean we shouldn't take the risk? Not necessarily, life is about risk. But there's calculated risk and there's irresponsible risk. This sails dangerously close to the latter. Don't cheapen the risk by using lazy terms like "first world worry".

I totally get that the country wants something different and that for a lot of people things are so **** they want anything other than what we currently have, even if it risks making things worse. But plenty of Remainers are in exactly the same boat, they just differ in that they don't feel that taking a wrecking ball to the situation and hoping something good might come of it is an acceptable risk. And in some cases they also don't agree that the EU is the root cause of many of the problems we face anyway.

But it will be handled properly, it's in and always had been in everyones interests to do that. The EU is far from our biggest problem, it's something that for many is heading in a direction people don;t like but many of the immigration and certainly the money arguments were ill formed and wrong but then many people who voted leave knew that, they were not part of their decision process.

 

[Cern]

I agree we are at the start and there is lots of discussion and clarification to take place but we have started the leaving of the EU and I do not see that changing.

You're right, we're definitely leaving. That much is clear. But to what extent are we leaving and on what terms?

Is it a moving into the spare bedroom for a sulky separation before grudgingly coming back to the marital bed?

Or a moving around the corner trial separation that never really works out?

Or getting a full divorce, some tattoos removed and then starting a new life?

Or perhaps a quick and messy divorce followed by a new mail order bride from the far east who turns out to be far more of a control freak than your European ex ever was?

 

[Housey]

I think we will sleep with others but come back in a few years time to revisit the relationship and because we like the kinky sex the Germans are good at.