Brexit thread - what happens next

[kitch9]

Deleted

 

[kitch9]

What did those evil Romanians do to you?

I live in Doncaster, have a Google.

 

[Faustus]

This is my interpretation of the politicians meaning of sovereignty. We the UK politicians have power. However, being in the EU means we don't have all the power, we have to share power with you our strange cousins across the channel.

You our strange cousins are even allowed to enact legislation that affects the UK. Well we're not having it. We want all the power for ourselves. It should be left to us in the UK to grind the plebs into the ground not anyone else.

Because we haven't got our own way we've got the plebs to agree and we're now taking our ball home.

 

[Zethor]

I live in Doncaster, have a Google.

I have no idea what this means.

 

[Chris Wilson]

I have no idea what this means.

https://www.google.com/search?as_q=..._occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=

Show some searches that show Doncaster citizens praising these Romanian migrants and wanting more to come please. I think he made his point subtly and without prejudice. It seems an overriding consensus of opinion is their influx has not been entirely beneficial or without issues.

 

[Mr Badger]

I don't want to be part of a federal Europe and I don't care what it costs. We fought 2 world wars and already paid the ultimate price ensuring that didn't happen, a few potential economic percentage points here and there isn't a big price to pay.

At all.

There were also lots of wars in Europe before WW1. Do you even know why the EU was formed? I'll give you a hint - it involves not having another period of wholesale slaughter between European nations. A few key early dates:

1946 Winston Churchill calls for a "kind of United States of Europe" in a speech at Zurich University.

1949 France, UK and the Benelux countries decide to set in place a Council of Europe.

1950 Robert Schuman, the French Foreign Minister, proposes that France, Germany and any other European country wishing to join pool coal and steel resources.

1951 Treaty of Paris signed by the Six (Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands), establishing the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC).

1957 Treaties of Rome establish the European Economic Community (EEC)

And so on to the current EU structure - and a sustained period of peace.

 

[Caged]

Who is the "we" in "we fought two world wars" anyway? I didn't fight in a world war. I'm reasonably sure kitch9 didn't fight in two world wars either.

Seems a bit strange to try and assume what people who did fight in two world wars would want and take up a position based on that assumption, as opposed to evaluating the facts as they stand in the present day.

 

[StriderX]

There were also lots of wars in Europe before WW1. Do you even know why the EU was formed? I'll give you a hint - it involves not having another period of wholesale slaughter between European nations. A few key early dates:

1946 Winston Churchill calls for a "kind of United States of Europe" in a speech at Zurich University.

1949 France, UK and the Benelux countries decide to set in place a Council of Europe.

1950 Robert Schuman, the French Foreign Minister, proposes that France, Germany and any other European country wishing to join pool coal and steel resources.

1951 Treaty of Paris signed by the Six (Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands), establishing the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC).

1957 Treaties of Rome establish the European Economic Community (EEC)

And so on to the current EU structure - and a sustained period of peace.

Yeah, well... not quite working now is it.

 

[Cern]

Please don't make assumptions about the reasons and motivations of anyone who fought in either World War (or indeed both) and try to bend it your argument.

Many were just doing their duty and what they felt was expected of them, and once conscription started doing what was demanded of them. Many didn't wish to speak about it to any family members, even with the distance and healing of time. As a result, it's very hard to piece together personal motivations and it is further complicated by the huge amount of propaganda and jingoism that always surrounds war.

One thing we should all agree on is that their sacrifice shouldn't be in vain. And this is true of all countries throughout Europe, not just here. So, whether the UK ends up fully outside the EU or just more loosely attached, it is our duty to those who made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure things stay amicable whatever direction the future holds and fight against the xenophobia and hate.

 

[scorza]

Honestly I think we're as close as we've ever been to another world war in my lifetime at least, indeed I sometimes think it's already started and we just refuse to acknowledge it. It's debatable whether the EU has prevented conflict between member states, but one thing's for sure is that it hasn't helped the west's relationship with Russia one little bit.

 

[Mr Badger]

Yeah, well... not quite working now is it.

Please give examples of these wars between member countries of the EU.

 

[Tefal]

Please give examples of these wars between member countries of the EU.

Yeah i think thats down to france and Britain's large nuclear arsenals than the EU which was formed as a trade block

 

[Insanties_birth]

Please give examples of these wars between member countries of the EU.

Did they ever really stop a war themselves though or was it more a .lack of will for war after two world wars with Europe playing centre ground to the massacres? War not happening is not the same as them preventing war.

 

[Cern]

Did they ever really stop a war themselves though or was it more a .lack of will for war after two world wars with Europe playing centre ground to the massacres? War not happening is not the same as them preventing war.

The EEC / EU has prevented war because it has created unity, inter-reliance and a shared sense of purpose among its members. Not without many problems of course, but it's generally the case that it's brought countries together rather than driven them apart.

It's not true to say that the EU, in its earliest incarnation, started as 'just' a trade block. The origins of the EU lie in a number of organisations including the the European Coal And Steel Community (ECSC), European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom) and the European Economic Community (EEC). Yes trade was an important aspect, but so was the purpose of attempting to spread unity and stability and also to control the buildup of heavy industry / armaments.

Of course the Cold War put its own pressures on the situation as it developed and that's where nuclear arsenals had their biggest influence. But once the Cold War ended and Eastern Bloc countries finally broke away from the Soviet Union the goalposts of the EU moved substantially. Yes this has soured EU relations with Russia and caused complications with many of the longer-standing members of the EU. But those eastern European countries were always going to break away eventually and would likely have formed their own union if they weren't able to join the EU.

Essentially the EU is still in the process of dealing with the effects of this wider integration. But it's still better to try to make it work than the alternative where it doesn't work and Europe starts to splinter apart again.

Don't forget that much of this is viewed differently on mainland Europe where most countries share land borders and where there has always been huge amounts of migration. In the UK we have always had an island mentality about the whole thing.

 

[johnloo]

Honestly I think we're as close as we've ever been to another world war in my lifetime at least, indeed I sometimes think it's already started and we just refuse to acknowledge it. It's debatable whether the EU has prevented conflict between member states, but one thing's for sure is that it hasn't helped the west's relationship with Russia one little bit.

David Cameron: I’m ready to lead Britain out of Europe if migrant reforms fail

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-out-of-Europe-if-migrant-reforms-fail.html

sudden U turn

 

[VincentHanna]

Honestly I think we're as close as we've ever been to another world war in my lifetime at least, indeed I sometimes think it's already started and we just refuse to acknowledge it.

Sorry, but that made me laugh

I was born in 1982 and a few times we came close to nuclear annihilation.

 

[scorza]

After Brexit, a Bold Britain: A game plan for remaking British power.

Sounds good to me. In a nutshell:

- Europe Must Remain a Top Priority;
- A Bold Britain is a Global Britain;
- Rebuild and Refocus Strategic Capabilities.

Brexit provides the spark to set the engine in motion. Now is the time for the United Kingdom to seize the opportunity and establish a bold, positive and expansive new platform to define its global role for the rest of the century. As the great British statesman, Sir Winston Churchill, is often attributed as having said, “Never let a good crisis go to waste.”

 

[do_ron_ron]

Honestly I think we're as close as we've ever been to another world war in my lifetime at least, indeed I sometimes think it's already started and we just refuse to acknowledge it. It's debatable whether the EU has prevented conflict between member states, but one thing's for sure is that it hasn't helped the west's relationship with Russia one little bit.

We are no way near a world war, in fact it is much further away than previously(Cold War time). Russia is not equipped for such a war now and there are no other even credible threats at present. The only thing on the horizon would be if some nutter got their hands on Nukes but I don't think America will elect Trump.

Yeah i think thats down to france and Britain's large nuclear arsenals than the EU which was formed as a trade block

No I think that is definitely down to close ties between the countries of the EU. Too intermingled with trade and people in each others countries.

The EEC / EU has prevented war because it has created unity, inter-reliance and a shared sense of purpose among its members. Not without many problems of course, but it's generally the case that it's brought countries together rather than driven them apart.

It's not true to say that the EU, in its earliest incarnation, started as 'just' a trade block. The origins of the EU lie in a number of organisations including the the European Coal And Steel Community (ECSC), European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom) and the European Economic Community (EEC). Yes trade was an important aspect, but so was the purpose of attempting to spread unity and stability and also to control the buildup of heavy industry / armaments.

Of course the Cold War put its own pressures on the situation as it developed and that's where nuclear arsenals had their biggest influence. But once the Cold War ended and Eastern Bloc countries finally broke away from the Soviet Union the goalposts of the EU moved substantially. Yes this has soured EU relations with Russia and caused complications with many of the longer-standing members of the EU. But those eastern European countries were always going to break away eventually and would likely have formed their own union if they weren't able to join the EU.

Essentially the EU is still in the process of dealing with the effects of this wider integration. But it's still better to try to make it work than the alternative where it doesn't work and Europe starts to splinter apart again.

Don't forget that much of this is viewed differently on mainland Europe where most countries share land borders and where there has always been huge amounts of migration. In the UK we have always had an island mentality about the whole thing.

Very true.

After Brexit, a Bold Britain: A game plan for remaking British power.

Sounds good to me. In a nutshell:

- Europe Must Remain a Top Priority;
- A Bold Britain is a Global Britain;
- Rebuild and Refocus Strategic Capabilities.

Except the world has moved on, we no longer have great manufacturing base and the recent Referendum has put this country more in the 'Little England' box than any other.

 

[Cern]

After Brexit, a Bold Britain: A game plan for remaking British power.

Sounds good to me. In a nutshell:

- Europe Must Remain a Top Priority;
- A Bold Britain is a Global Britain;
- Rebuild and Refocus Strategic Capabilities.

Where's all the money coming from to fund this second coming of the British Empire?

Despite all the fuss about the size of the UK's net contribution to the EU, it's still only about 0.5% of GDP. So even if 100% of that money was diverted to building the infrastructure, industry, armed forces, research and education needed to build this "Bolder Britain" it's a tiny drop in the ocean.

This is all at a time when the lives of the majority of the UK's population have been blighted by the banking crisis, recession and the resulting austerity. This is something that is FAR from over, yet Leavers seem to think that plunging into another recession will somehow allow us to build this brighter, bolder future. Build it how? With what?

Unless the UK fixes all its many internal problems caused by inequality, regional neglect and the ravages of austerity, Bolder Britain is nothing more than a fantasy.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Did they ever really stop a war themselves though or was it more a .lack of will for war after two world wars with Europe playing centre ground to the massacres? War not happening is not the same as them preventing war.

Are people forgetting the Yugoslavian conflicts and ethnic cleansing that ran in Europe for years and years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars

Hardly peace in Europe when ethnic conflict raged on for so long. In fact the hirsute Radovan Karadzic was only imprisoned for alleged war crimes in the region in March 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radovan_Karadžić

I don't foresee a world war, but I can easily see the migrant situation triggering something similar to that sort of ethnic conflict in Europe in the foreseeable future.