What are people's thoughts on the burkini ban in France?

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Arazi said:
I don't think i have said ban Islam, that for the moment in time won't happen, i will be long dead before banning religions comes to the world.

Large portions of Muslims in the UK support Sharia law, anyone calling for a separate law to suit their religion over any UK law should never even get to discussion stages.

Also what goes on in a Muslim country in the ME will affect a lot of Muslims who live in the UK, so it does have a relevance.
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Sharia law is not proposed by anything beyond a minority of Muslims.

The thing that gets peddled over and over again is the voluntary mediation services which happen on issues surrounding marriage. At no point have I heard someone say UK marital law should be changed to Sharia marital law. I completely agree that people should be aware of their rights under the UK law, and the supremacy of UK law. Mediators should be required by law to state everyone's rights under the UK law (in any matter).
 
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Brizzles said:
If France wants to impose dress restrictions, then they should be allowed in the same way that Muslim countries impose the same restrictions.

Would you go to Saudi and argue about how you want to dress ?
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I wouldnt visit the backwards country full stop.

But besides that, Saudi can do whatever they like. France can, too, but it doesnt mean i have to agree with it and it doesn't mean it makes any sense either, and photo comparisons have already be posted showing exactly why it's a load a toffee. It's like banning Disney animated films because the CEO is Jewish whilst still allowing pixar films to be shown. The burkini ban isn't at all functional, what good does it actually do?
 
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muon said:
First of all, a religion can't demand anything. It is people that demand things.
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And religion that demands that those people demand things that increase the power of the religion.

How many Muslims do you see asking for the supremacy of Islam above all else? There are a few million Muslims in the UK.
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The proportion of Muslims who do or don't doesn't matter very much because what happens isn't controlled by a continuous referendum.

Islam is an ideology that is very strongly focused on power and control of everything and everyone. An unknown proportion of Muslims are willing to tone that down to varying extents, some of them even to the extent of keeping religion a personal matter and not making it a legal and political matter despite the fact that Islam is explicitly all three. Since they're not seeking power and control, they're far less likely to have power and control. That will very strongly tend to go to those who seek it, unsurprisingly. So it doesn't matter if the proportion of Muslims who are willing to change their religion to restrict it to being a personal matter is 1%, 10% or 90%. They won't run the show. The people who will run the show will indoctrinate as strongly as possible, so the proportion of dissenters would reduce over time. They would also oppress as harshly as possible, so the proportion of dissenters who would speak out would reduce over time as well.

It doesn't take anything near a majority to rule. It can be done even with a very small minority, especially if that minority can use a larger group as claimed support because they follow the same ideology. So Muslims who don't seek power over others (a) are inherently far less powerful than those do, regardless of whatever the numbers might be and (b) help those who do seek that power, whether they want to or not.
 
"This is just an Islamophobic attack on Muslim women in Cannes," Aysha Ziauddin, who lives in Norfolk, told the BBC.
"The burkini allows me the freedom to swim and go on the beach, and I don't feel I am compromising my beliefs for that.
"No-one has ever told me to wear it - it's my own choice.
"How is a woman on a beach swimming in a wetsuit with her head covered a symbol of Islamic extremism?
 
muon said:
This thread is about banning something in particular relating to a specific religion. Where the rationale is about explicitly removing an indication of this religion from our beaches. This affects British Muslims (and French) if you didn't realise.
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You are obviously anti to this, and that is your right/point of view etc.

But how do you condemn this without condemning the other countries that have imposed this for hundreds of years already ?

I stand by my earlier post about 'respect of dress codes' and the link i made.

I didn't state that SA/Iran/UAE etc.. were wrong, but i defended the right of another country to have a different view.

A religion can't impose strict restrictions and seem it fair in there country, then oppose the same restrictions in another country.

Its simple, despite whatever spin you want to add to make the arguement more suited to your agenda
 
Muon, you believe banning this item of clothing is wrong. Do you also believe that forcing people to wear such items in other countries is also wrong?
 
Brizzles said:
You are obviously anti to this, and that is your right/point of view etc.

But how do you condemn this without condemning the other countries that have imposed this for hundreds of years already ?

I stand by my earlier post about 'respect of dress codes' and the link i made.

I didn't state that SA/Iran/UAE etc.. were wrong, but i defended the right of another country to have a different view.

A religion can't impose strict restrictions and seem it fair in there country, then oppose the same restrictions in another country.

Its simple, despite whatever spin you want to add to make the arguement more suited to your agenda
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I am more than happy to condemn any country which imposes a dress code which denies people their freedom, e.g. Saudi Arabia and France. For the record, the former much more than the latter.

A religion doesn't impose anything. A government, lawmakers, or the rulers of a country impose laws. Like Saudi Arabia, they could be driven by religious ideology, (an interpretation which is not agreed with by many other majority Muslim countries).

However, UK laws are driven by (relative to Saudi Arabia) libertarian ideals. UK laws aren't driven by a desire to out do another nation's conservatism or somehow to balance the unfairness of another nation's laws by swinging in the extreme the other way.

I want to now focus on this senetence

A religion can't impose strict restrictions and seem it fair in there country, then oppose the same restrictions in another country.
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The British Muslims, which any ban in the UK (or French Muslims in France) would affect, did not establish the laws in Saudi Arabia. You can't accuse them of hypocrisy.
 
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Dis86 said:
Muon, you believe banning this item of clothing is wrong. Do you also believe that forcing people to wear such items in other countries is also wrong?
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I think my posts are pretty clear. Any country which forces it's people to dress in a certain way is not to be admired. When that goes hand in hand with the deliberate targeting of a specific group of people (who as a minority aren't able to defend themselves), that bigotry should also be condemned.

What I would describe as more comparable to this thread is the abhorrent way many (not all) Muslim majority countries oppress other religions.
 
muon said:
Surprised you even had to ask.

A common attack on my viewpoint would be that I am a liberal who believes in too much freedom.
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You'd be surprised how many liberals on here are liberal in one direction only ;)

Clearly you swing both ways! (ooo er!)
 
Dis86 said:
What?
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"The burkini allows me the freedom to swim and go on the beach, and I don't feel I am compromising my beliefs for that."

"No-one has ever told me to wear it - it's my own choice."

Like I posted earlier, obviously being forced to cover up is bad, nobody is saying otherwise. This thread was advertised as one about the Burkini even though its seems to have shifted to anti islam.

So in terms of the Burkini and it allowing women to keep within their beliefs then how is it a bad thing.

The people against it all seem to think that without it Islamic people can come to a beach in regular bikinis where as all it will do is stop a large amount of women coming to a beach. So rather than punishing the law makers for enforcing women to cover up under the name of Islam you are just causing greater oppression... its not hard to understand.
 
muon said:
A religion doesn't impose anything.
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You really need to wake up an leave your ivory tower.

You are speaking as an idealist where the world could just adjust after a quick conversation.

Millions of people live in these countries where 'religion doesn't impose anything', but you cannot dare oppose it.

Drop your views from your ' safe space ' and ask if you could say the same in their place.
 
richthomuk said:
"The burkini allows me the freedom to swim and go on the beach, and I don't feel I am compromising my beliefs for that."

"No-one has ever told me to wear it - it's my own choice."

Like I posted earlier, obviously being forced to cover up is bad, nobody is saying otherwise. This thread was advertised as one about the Burkini even though its seems to have shifted to anti islam.

So in terms of the Burkini and it allowing women to keep within their beliefs then how is it a bad thing.

The people against it all seem to think that without it Islamic people can come to a beach in regular bikinis where as all it will do is stop a large amount of women coming to a beach. So rather than punishing the law makers for enforcing women to cover up under the name of Islam you are just causing greater oppression... its not hard to understand.
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Right, but the Burka isn't a necessary part of Islam. They can go to the beach in regular bikinis. There's nothing stopping them. To my knowledge (and I appreciate anyone providing links to show me I'm wrong) the only requirement is the head covering.
 
Dis86 said:
Right, but the Burka isn't a necessary part of Islam. They can go to the beach in regular bikinis. There's nothing stopping them. To my knowledge (and I appreciate anyone providing links to show me I'm wrong) the only requirement is the head covering.
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LMAO these guys really listen to nothing.
 
Brizzles said:
You really need to wake up an leave your ivory tower.

You are speaking as an idealist where the world could just adjust after a quick conversation.

Millions of people live in these countries where 'religion doesn't impose anything', but you cannot dare oppose it.

Drop your views from your ' safe space ' and ask if you could say the same in their place.
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You do realise the religion is just an abstract inanimate idea? A book literally can't do anything other than sit on a shelf, it is not even a weapon.

Muslims (people) do things. So when considering Muslims in the UK on various issues, what the majority are saying and doing is what matters.

Not what your interpretation of Islam is, something which can be selected depending on what agenda you want to push.
 
Dis86 said:
Right, but the Burka isn't a necessary part of Islam. They can go to the beach in regular bikinis. There's nothing stopping them. To my knowledge (and I appreciate anyone providing links to show me I'm wrong) the only requirement is the head covering.
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Like all religions. There isn't a homogenous set of beliefs. So not even Muslims can say other Muslims are wrong. However, it wouldn't be silly to equate the Burka with more "extreme" beliefs (see article below to make sure you understand what a Burka is).

A Burka for the record covers the face and all contours of the body.

A Burkini isn't be an acceptable alternative.

It is more akin to normal clothing with a headscarf. An interpretation which is actually very popular amongst Muslim women.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241

Here's an article on the differences.
 
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