At what point will gender equality stop

[Haggisman]

true, it'd cultural conditioning all right, you have a baby boy you give him lego and meccano or rc cars etc

you have a baby girl you give her dolls, little pushchairs and those plastic babies that have some freakishly strange functionality.

it's the same in tv etc, women are almost always portrayed these days as scientists, and if there is an engineer odds are it's a man or a woman being lumped with being an almost comedy character.

me ma puts it quite well that a baby has no concept of what it is, boy/girl whatever until it gets told by society.

So why does society have this preconception of how boys "should" be and how girls "should" be? Did our ancestors all get together at some point in the past and decide "hey everyone, from now on we're all going to all raise our kids like this"? Or perhaps it's because men and women are naturally more disposed to certain roles?* It's not exactly far-fetched considering the huge biological difference when it comes to reproduction...

* Obviously this is a massive generalisation and there will be exceptions on both sides

 

[Roar87]

No he's bang on you're saying men should not be given jobs bevause theyre men.

So as the proponent you should really go first.


Or is this anothet of your left wing "everyone should do more to help....by everyone i mean everyone but me" things?

Guys like him are hilarious, I'd love to see his face after being told they picked a Woman over him for a big promotion because she has the right genitals.

 

[platypus]

Good luck trying to survive on one wage and having a meaningful life.

Why, is this not possible?

 

[Zethor]

No he's bang on you're saying men should not be given jobs bevause theyre men.

So as the proponent you should really go first.


Or is this anothet of your left wing "everyone should do more to help....by everyone i mean everyone but me" things?

I have read you post, the answer isn't there, so explain it.

You say it's bad to push ~50% of the population out of a job because of sexism, but then sexism is exactly what you propose. The best person for the job should get it, but you want to be sexist and push out the men and replace them with women.

Why so much focus on positive discrimination? I only mentioned it briefly as a method that can be used but I don't consider it the most important tool needed to achieve equality. Furthermore, it's a method that has yielded some results:

Our analysis shows that minority graduates of the medical school class of 1975 are fulfilling many of the objectives of affirmative-action programs.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198512123132406


Ongoing debate:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/affirmative-action/#4

As I told Roar87, try to expand your views beyond simple anecdotes.

We certainly aren't at 100%, but at the same time I don't believe positive discrimination is the way to go to get there.

That's reasonable but I think it's more beneficial to try different methods and risk failure than to bury our heads in the sand and pretend nothing's wrong.

 

[alx]

That is a separate issue through.

If we as a society want our women to have kids, we can create the conditions for that. But a business may not have any real interest in that, which is what the person you were responding to was pointing out.

From a strictly business point of view, women going on maternity leave is bad for business. The fact we as a society compel them to hire women who may go on maternity leave is anti-business.

Granted we as a society may want that, so we have laws and welfare to support it. But you can hardly accuse a business of sexism because it's interests are its own bottom line.

This is especially true for small businesses who cannot carry such a burden easily.



In what way are they punished? If you choose to have less experience than someone else, it's not a punishment to be paid less than the more experienced person or not given the same opportunities.

For the exact reason you explained in first part of your post - businesses often don't want to hire women because of potential maternity leave.

 

[Roar87]

Why so much focus on positive discrimination? I only mentioned it briefly as a method that can be used but I don't consider it the most important tool needed to achieve equality. Furthermore, it's a method that has yielded some results:

Our analysis shows that minority graduates of the medical school class of 1975 are fulfilling many of the objectives of affirmative-action programs.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198512123132406


Ongoing debate:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/affirmative-action/#4

As I told Roar87, try to expand your views beyond simple anecdotes.



That's reasonable but I think it's more beneficial to try different methods and risk failure than to bury our heads in the sand and pretend nothing's wrong.

I do not respect your views because you are not personally willing to put your job prospects on the line. I would not be happy for someone to be promoted above me who was not more suited to the job, and if the decision was based on their race/gender/whatever I would start applying for jobs at another company.

 

[RDM]

Or perhaps it's because men and women are naturally more disposed to certain roles?*
* Obviously this is a massive generalisation and there will be exceptions on both sides

As obvious as this may seem, there isn't any real evidence to back it up. There are some biological differences between genders but nothing that makes men better at maths or women better at being carers.

 

[alx]

But what does society do that makes girls uninterested in acience and maths and choose not to study them beyond the required minimum

This is quite a good paper explaining it, no need to read all of it, the Excutive Summary should be enough. https://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/...ce-Technology-Engineering-and-Mathematics.pdf

Some people will disagree, but unfortunately society does have unconscious bias (although his also affects men in other areas).

 

[Tefal]

This is quite a good paper explaining it, no need to read all of it, the Excutive Summary should be enough. https://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/...ce-Technology-Engineering-and-Mathematics.pdf

Some people will disagree, but unfortunately society does have unconscious bias (although his also affects men in other areas).

one thing that is instantly noticeable about that paper is every author specialist and advisor is a woman.

 

[Tefal]

Why so much focus on positive discrimination?

Same reason if you make a post about a wide range of methodologies for improving GDP and then slip in

"businesses should employ white people over black people because it will be better for the economy"


that's gonna be the sentence that gets picked up on because it's the most objectionable and "ist" part.

doesn't matter what else you say (which was mostly waffle to be fair) racism, sexism or any other blatant discrimination is going to be the headline figure because people find it so repugnant.

Try being less of a bigot and you'll find less people calling you out on it.

 

[Tefal]

Why so much focus on positive discrimination? I only mentioned it briefly as a method that can be used but I don't consider it the most important tool needed to achieve equality. Furthermore, it's a method that has yielded some results:

Our analysis shows that minority graduates of the medical school class of 1975 are fulfilling many of the objectives of affirmative-action programs.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198512123132406

is one of those objectives inferior candidates getting the position because of the colour of their skin?

 

[phil675]

The change is not yet complete, we need more women in politics, science, engineering and yes, even CEO positions. .

I've heard this a lot but never a valid reason. Why should a hiring decision be based on gender?

 

[Kuros]

The problem I see these days is that, for the majority of families, both men and women need to work in order to stay above the breadline.

Wages have stagnated whilst the cost of living has gone up, they both need to have full time jobs as opposed to having the option of one staying at home looking after the children.

 

[platypus]

I've heard this a lot but never a valid reason. Why should a hiring decision be based on gender?

It absolutely shouldn't.

I think the people in favour of Positive Discrimination (what a disgusting term) would argue that it's needed exactly because people discriminate against women when hiring for a role/promotion, so the only way they can stop this is to set quotas on % of women hired, for example. In an ideal world, the best person for the job would get it.

I don't know what the answer is, but PD is a disgusting way to go about trying to change things.

 

[alx]

one thing that is instantly noticeable about that paper is every author specialist and advisor is a woman.

Do you actually disagree with what's said, or are you just using the authors gender as convenient way to avoid discussing the issue?

More here if you want: http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/stemcentral/gender/factors/index.asp

And before anyone jumps on my back, I'm a male engineer who effectively benefits from this, but I think it's fairly obvious cultural stereotypes are fairly influencial (not just in this, but in a myriad of areas, not just gender related).

 

[Tefal]

Do you actually disagree with what's said, or are you just using the authors gender as convenient way to avoid discussing the issue?

More here if you want: http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/stemcentral/gender/factors/index.asp

And before anyone jumps on my back, I'm a male engineer who effectively benefits from this, but I think it's fairly obvious cultural stereotypes are fairly influencial (not just in this, but in a myriad of areas, not just gender related).

i had a quick read, i made that post as i was reading it, as it seemed a funny observation a paper on gender bias has huge gender bias

it seemed very American centric.

due to how education works in the uk being heavily course work based some of its foundation arguments (boys performing better than girls) is incorrect and so doesn't apply.

they use that as a foundation, but here girls perform better than boys, yet we do not see the huge swing that should produce.


Over all the entire paper seems to strongly push blame to everyone but the girls who, choose not to go into stem, for whatever reason. (personal experience being they find it boring and not what they want to do, having spent 2 years from the age of 22-24 chatting up girls in college, which required leaving the enginering block to find any )

 

[Haggisman]

As obvious as this may seem, there isn't any real evidence to back it up. There are some biological differences between genders but nothing that makes men better at maths or women better at being carers.

I didn't say "better", I said "more disposed to" which is slightly, but importantly different. Being good at something and being interested in doing it are 2 very different things!

 

[Tosno]

Why are there more stay at home dads now than there were 30 years ago?

Is it because men are becoming more biologically wired to want to look after kids, or is it because the societal norm is changing?

No one answered the most important question put by cheesyboy...

Excluding modern job changes, it is because more men are becoming beta. They struggle to get a girlfriend, then settle for anything, even if it puts them into roles they never wanted to do.

"Honey, I want to play manager at work, you have to stay and take care of kids, if you argue with me there will be even less sex and you will never get another woman."

 

[cheesyboy]

No one answered the most important question put by cheesyboy...

Excluding modern job changes, it is because more men are becoming beta. They struggle to get a girlfriend, then settle for anything, even if it puts them into roles they never wanted to do.

"Honey, I want to play manager at work, you have to stay and take care of kids, if you argue with me there will be even less sex and you will never get another woman."

After the sad demise (permabanning) of one or two of my favourite posters, you're rapidly rising towards the top of my list, Tosno.

I often can't decide if you're a moron or a genius, but i enjoy your shtick either way

 

[balky12]

It won't... there isn't equality anywhere. Especially once you start analysing things under a microscope.

About time people realised this and just cracked on with life. Make the best from what you got. Instread of wasting time trying to level the playing field or moaning about it