Poll: Doctors strike tomorrow, do you support it?

[norm]

But isnt this not about senior level doctors?

Just the Junior almost slavelike ones?

And? Most careers have starting grade salaries which are way below what you could expect to earn at higher levels.

The NHS should be looking to modernise anyway, Saturday is a regular part of the working week for many professions now I don't see why the health service should be any exception.

 

[Minstadave]

Doctors are handsomely paid already, so I don't really sympathise with their moaning about changes to weekend pay.

All sectors of industry go through reform, the medical profession is not exempt. And jeopardising the lives of patients to make your point is very poor form.

Handsomely paid? I think that is a bold statement. The pay is ok, less than any of my colleagues that did law earn - but then I trained for longer, work nights and weekends, and if I **** up some one dies - sweet deal! I'm sure the best and brightest will be jumping at the change to roll up their sleeves and become doctors.

Jeopordising lives is another unsubstantiated statement - not seen any evidence that the previous strikes caused any deaths despite the intense media spotlight. They cause plenty of disruption sure, but that's the point.

Reform is fine. Reform based on bad data, which goes against the governments own research, is probably bloody dangerous and goes as far as imposing a contract (which Hunt still hasn't even proved he actually has the power to do yet) is a bit more than run of the mill reform.

 

[Minstadave]

But isnt this not about senior level doctors?

Just the Junior almost slavelike ones?

It is every doctor in training below consultant level. So I've been a doctor for 9 years, am the most senior paediatrician in the hospital for an entire city, but am still a junior doctor - it's a bit of a daft term.

 

[Minstadave]

And? Most careers have starting grade salaries which are way below what you could expect to earn at higher levels.

The NHS should be looking to modernise anyway, Saturday is a regular part of the working week for many professions now I don't see why the health service should be any exception.

Try calling a plumber or an electrician out on a Saturday. Or finding a nursery open on a Saturday. Drop your kids off at school on a Saturday? Then see if it's a normal working day.

Normal working day until 9pm on a weekday - sure let me find childcare that's open that late.

Simply cutting antisocial hours pay for doctors isn't going to fix the NHS. I suspect the Government want to set a precedent so they can push it out onto the more expensive staff groups (nurses) who are even better paid (proportionally) than we are for out of hours work.

 

[Dis86]

Try calling a plumber or an electrician out on a Saturday. Or finding a nursery open on a Saturday. Drop your kids off at school on a Saturday? Then see if it's a normal working day.

Normal working day until 9pm on a weekday - sure let me find childcare that's open that late.

To be fair to him he didn't say all. He said many. Which is true, many do.

You're also right though, Saturday is not an easy day to work, nor are late hours however many people manage it.

 

[Minstadave]

To be fair to him he didn't say all. He said many. Which is true, many do.

You're also right though, Saturday is not an easy day to work, nor are late hours however many people manage it.

Are there any professions that work for plain time on a Saturday? I don't think there are many.

The Government want us to work like professionals but pay us like shift workers. That doesn't sit right with me. If there's a sick kid I don't down tools and walk out the door at the end of my shift, I stay until the work is done. Night shift call in sick, I'll go home and come back to cover the night. But start paying me like I'm a warehouse worker and impose whatever contract the current numpty in Whitehall fancies you're going to lose that.

 

[Dis86]

All service industries. Police. Fire.

I think you're being very unfair on some shift workers there. The guys that work for me stay until the job is done. They wouldn't dream of leaving it half arsed.

Offshore we work 12 hour days minimum with no days off until rotation. That can easily be six weeks without a day off

 

[Tefal]

Try calling a plumber or an electrician out on a Saturday. Or finding a nursery open on a Saturday. Drop your kids off at school on a Saturday? Then see if it's a normal working day.

Normal working day until 9pm on a weekday - sure let me find childcare that's open that late.

To be fair most factories, food prep, and shops work 24/7 or at least weekends.


I mean when was the last time you saw shops shut because it was saturday?

Bur i agree fully that it's unsociable hours and needs a decent uplift.

Iirc at our place the shift that covers the wekeend (sunday not saturday though) is a 39% uplift and thats 3 on 4 off.

 

[Minstadave]

To be fair most factories, food prep, and shops work 24/7 or at least weekends.


I mean when was the last time you saw shops shut because it was saturday?

Bur i agree fully that it's unsociable hours and needs a decent uplift.

Iirc at our place the shift that covers the wekeend (sunday not saturday though) is a 39% uplift and thats 3 on 4 off.

None of those are professions.

 

[Minstadave]

Edit: Misread.

 

[Minstadave]

All service industries. Police. Fire.

I think you're being very unfair on some shift workers there. The guys that work for me stay until the job is done. They wouldn't dream of leaving it half arsed.

Offshore we work 12 hour days minimum with no days off until rotation. That can easily be six weeks without a day off

It's a bit irrelevant telling us how much you work without knowing what you do, what you earn, what training you had, perks, how much time off you get after rotation etc

 

[Tefal]

None of those are professions.

Ok fine engineers.

 

[Minstadave]

All service industries. Police. Fire.

I think you're being very unfair on some shift workers there. The guys that work for me stay until the job is done. They wouldn't dream of leaving it half arsed.

Offshore we work 12 hour days minimum with no days off until rotation. That can easily be six weeks without a day off

I'm pretty sure neither police or fire have five to six years of training (at 9k+ a year) before they earn a penny.

 

[Minstadave]

Ok fine engineers.

I have no idea what an engineer is paid or what hours they work. Do you?

 

[Dis86]

It's a bit irrelevant telling us how much you work without knowing what you do, what you earn, what training you had, perks, how much time off you get after rotation etc

Engineer. Five years uni. Different pay for different people. No perks at all. Different people have different patterns. Six on two off is quite a common one.

Junior engineers will be on about 30 to 35k for those rotations.

There are tradesmen. There are professionals. Offshore doctors.

 

[Minstadave]

Engineer. Five years uni. Different pay for different people. No perks at all. Different people have different patterns. Six on two off is quite a common one.

Junior engineers will be on about 30 to 35k for those rotations.

So similar pay to a junior doctor and a similar antisocial working pattern. Whats your point? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[Dis86]

So similar pay to a junior doctor and a similar antisocial working pattern. Whats your point? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Your argument has been that junior doctors are treat unfairly and that nobody else has the same issues. Mine is that it's not a unique situation.
People with similar levels of education, skill and experience have the same working patterns and don't get any extraordinary treatment for it.

 

[Minstadave]

What years of training are you talking about? Five years for the degree, then F1/2, so seven? Or are you including more JD years/am I missing some? I chose not to include optional years out in research etc which loads of the medics I know did, given they're entirely optional. A lot of solicitors will have done a three year degree, then an LPC, then a two year training contract... so six years. However, half of them come from non-law backgrounds so will be three year degree, one year GDL conversion, one year LPC, two year training contract... so seven years.

I don't understand law training but as I understood it most of my colleagues after their 3 year degree were sponsored the through their post grad training or were had started earning during it.

Medical training is 5/6 years before earning - is law the same?

 

[Minstadave]

Your argument has been that junior doctors are treat unfairly and that nobody else has the same issues. Mine is that it's not a unique situation.

People with similar levels of education, skill and experience have the same working patterns and don't get any extraordinary treatment for it.

My point is that we are as handsomely paid as many think for the amount of training, type of work and working pattern - which you seem to have supported by showing a junior engineer earns the same as a junior doctor with the highest level of banding - without running the risk of killing people on a daily basis.

So it doesn't seem wholly unreasonable to resist our pay and working conditions being cut further. Especially as we work for a monopoly employer and apparently everyone will die if we are evil enough to take industrial action.

 

[jimjamuk]

Not been following the latest offer. Are they actually cutting pay and I mean overall? It does seem to me all about money which is fine if things are being cut. Did they introduce a cap on hours?