Poll: Doctors strike tomorrow, do you support it?
- Thread starter Dr House
- Start date
I see Dolph is still being Dolph ...
Soldato
- Joined
- 22 Jul 2014
- Posts
- 3,928
- Location
- Oxon
Of course they're about money. Almost everything boils down to that. That doesn't mean the junior doctors other concerns and reasons for striking aren't valid. If paying them less (through forcing them to work more hours or directly cutting wages) results in them not being able to save lives as well as they do now, then that's a valid motivation.
It's pertinent to the comparisons to other professions too. We shouldn't expect would-be doctors to want to enter the profession purely out of altruism. Of course if the pay is crap, they'll go into engineering, law, etc.
You're making assumptions again. If one of my structural engineers makes a mistake it could cost hundreds of lives. I have friends and colleagues who if they make an error could potentially kill thousands at once.
That's not to mention the financial impacts. For a single days delay caused by one of my decisions we're looking at about £250k minimum vessel costs, it can be millions a day in lost production.
As a result of the decline in oil prices my job has been squeezed. We've had staff laid off and have had to pick up their work ourselves for no extra pay.
You're exhibiting the attitude here that is causing much of the resentment towards the junior doctors that you're unhappy about. Many other people are in your situation, through unwilling ignorance you don't know about it but you're assuming you and your colleagues are something special.
Soldato
- Joined
- 22 Jul 2014
- Posts
- 3,928
- Location
- Oxon
That's not nearly the same as being personally and directly responsible for a human being in front of you.
Much like your favourite stripe of government that is in now then... All about money and most of it to throw at their friends with fat wallets.
They can be in front of us. They can also be hundreds or thousands of miles away it's true. It doesn't make it any more acceptable though!
I am directly responsible for the safety of every single person that works on one of my projects. I'm lucky, the worst injury I've ever had was a guy with a cut finger.
I know a guy first hand who had a technician fall in to a borehole as a drill was descending (happened in Russia, I'll try and find the news link later). His work cost someone's life. There. Infront of his eyes.
Soldato
- Joined
- 22 Jul 2014
- Posts
- 3,928
- Location
- Oxon
What about bus drivers, lorry drivers, train drivers, supermarket workers operating a PPT, etc.? Your argument ends with everyone in any job being paid exactly the same with the same crap working conditions because they can all end up injuring or killing people through not doing their jobs properly.
Associate
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2007
- Posts
- 2,184
- Location
- Abingdon
Also what is often forgotten is that the tuition fees that UK doctors pay only covers a small amount of the actual cost. In America, a medical degree can cost $200,000 in tuition fees alone.
I've heard some argue that doctors should be obligated to work in the NHS for a minimum term after qualifying in order to 'pay-back' the true cost of training them. The same is expected of pilots who have been trained by the military.
Additionally, pension contributions are another aspect of compensation not often looked at. Many doctors are looking to retire in their 50's as their pension pots are worth over £1,000,000 which means that they're then paying additional rate income tax with no further pension allowance.
The job is hard, but the rewards are high.
I've heard some argue that doctors should be obligated to work in the NHS for a minimum term after qualifying in order to 'pay-back' the true cost of training them. The same is expected of pilots who have been trained by the military.
Additionally, pension contributions are another aspect of compensation not often looked at. Many doctors are looking to retire in their 50's as their pension pots are worth over £1,000,000 which means that they're then paying additional rate income tax with no further pension allowance.
The job is hard, but the rewards are high.
But the obsession with claiming that doctors are different to any other professional raised in this thread blunts the comparison. You did it just a few posts after, for example.
Do you really think that the impact of improving the services available at evenings and weekends (where the effect of this lack of service is already measurable and quantifiable) will be offset by doctors throwing their toys out of the pram over a change in their pay structure to make it fairer on those who do not work a lot of premium hours? Even more so when you factor in the impact of the strikes over pay?
Which is the focus of the nhs supposed to be, the staff or the patients?
Your job sounds like a manager responsible for keeping people safe.
Doctors jobs are saving lives (not preventing death)
You realise that the "weekend effect" has been thoroughly debunked, right?
Nope. My job is to deliver engineering projects on time and on budget. The work that requires though is often very dangerous.
By throughly debunked you mean 'someone wrote something I agree with and I took it as gospel' I'm guessing.
How has the impact of additional suffering been dealt with for those who have delayed intervention due to the weekend?
The NHS was formed to create a healthy working population free at source as you well know. To suggest that society is benefited by removing the impetus to attract and retain talent is somewhat stupid.
It's funny how you'll pop into one thread and say bankers are worth what the market decides is value and that you have to pay for talent and then in other threads say that the likes of doctors, nurses and fireman etc have to accept a set rate because they are needed by society. Well in this day and age most of what the private world makes is needed by society so let's cap all the wages at an agreeable level.
Jobs that require degrees = £20-30k
Jobs that require masters = £30-50k
Jobs that require doctorates =£50-100k
You've not once demonstrated the NHS is efficient yet you blather on about it. You've just got this chip on your shoulder and tbh it's frankly getting tired. Your ideas about remedies were shown to be highly deficient. Any fool can highlight if things are not optimum. I remember Thatcher saying she liked people who brought her solutions not problems. That's what the NHS needs and that's what frontline staff do and yet you want to penalise the very people providing the change.
That statement is dancing on the head of a pin.
Many doctors are about preventative medicine or procedures.
Most people who go to see a doctor are not about to die, but in pain or discomfort or need a prescribed medication.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
My view on this long standing dispute is that there have been many meetings, discussions, negotiations, terminating with a meeting at ACAS chaired by a respected ex. leader of the TUC. Both parties left with a result which was agreed. It was accepted by the BMA Junior doctors committee as the best result that could be obtained.
So the response now to their 'referendum' of the junior doctors and medical students is an escalation of the dispute using 5 day strikes each month, up from two days previously. There has not been a vote I believe of the membership to confirm their wishes on taking strike action since the ACAS meeting.
Privately I hope that there will not be a huge number walking out but we will see which way their commitment lies. Hopefully the students will not boycott their coursework as well.
We could create that position then from any job? I work as a roofer and if I don't construct a roof properly people could be injured. I work as a mechanic and if I don't fix a car properly people die. I work as a tree surgeon and if I'm not careful people could die.
Doctors make literal life and death decisions.
Quite, but in this context.
Preventative medicine can prevent death or a condition deteriorating. Its that expertise we (or certainly I) value.
Except it's not. It's about scale and risk. If a mechanic screws up there is certainly a chance someone can be hurt but it's slim. If i screw up an oil platform explodes. A ship sinks. A processing plant blows up. Very different.
I can also be held legally and financially liable.
Last edited:
to get a pension that big the person would have to contribute more than the minimum amount