US University offers counselling to students after Sombreros worn at Tequila Party

That's not accurate, though. Take a look at epigenetics. It's particularly relevant in this case as genes do not determine sex. All humans start neuter and become neuter with the capacity to be either sex (i.e. all human foetuses have both Wolffian ducts and Mullerian ducts). It's hormones that trigger the sexing process, not genes.

Also, who would you define people who are female but have an XY sex chromosome pair? It happens - sex testing of athletes provides ongoing confirmation of it. In every such case, the woman in question had no idea. Do you know what sex gene type you have?

And how about people with neither XX nor XY? There are other possibilities.



If you really believe that, you must think that everyone is either a newborn baby or a single-celled fertilised egg. You probably don't.

We can sit here all day listing issues that could potentially arise during the development of babies, but that isn't relevant to most of the population is it, hence why I said if everything goes as it should. If you're a female with an XY chromosome pair, then that is not normal. I'm sure there's a medical term for that...

I'm talking about people that have been born exactly how they should have - no issues whatsoever - then going ahead and mutilating themselves/taking hormones because they are not happy with what life has selected for them. I'm sorry, but you cannot change. You will always be what you are.

No, obviously I don't think that. People were single-celled fertilised eggs, and then they were newborn babies. Because that's a natural change. What isn't natural is chopping off your penis and expecting everyone to think you're a bona fide woman. There's no change there.
 
I'm talking about people that have been born exactly how they should have - no issues whatsoever

And of course you know their exact chromosome make-up! Do you have this magical x-ray vision that can determine what peoples' genetic make up. Where can I get this power!

What is even more remarkable is that you can make such a determination because you will then also have some kind of special power that will have been able to determine what environmental factors they have been exposed to to shape that latent potential.

Alternatively, you don't have that power and are making a blind judgement that woefully ignores the prevalence of intersex in a population even with our current rather limited knowledge base which will most likely evolve over time.
 
Very, very few people who are transgender are intersex though.

If you're born with a set of both, then I don't know what to say to you - unlucky I guess. But for the most part, if you've got a penis you're a man, and getting rid isn't going to change the fact. Simple as. Now take your tampons out of my toilet.
 
Very, very few people who are transgender are intersex though.

If you're born with a set of both, then I don't know what to say to you - unlucky I guess. But for the most part, if you've got a penis you're a man, and getting rid isn't going to change the fact. Simple as. Now take your tampons out of my toilet.

Again your spouting opinion as fact.

Intersex doesn't mean you're born with both. You really don't have a clue what you are on about so maybe it's about time you realise you need to stop posting on this one. :p
 
Again your spouting opinion as fact.

Intersex doesn't mean you're born with both. You really don't have a clue what you are on about so maybe it's about time you realise you need to stop posting on this one. :p

It really don't matter when scientific fact it hitting you in the face, if you have a XX chromeosone you're a woman, an XY and you're a man. No amount of social engineering is going to change that.
 
It always amazes me when obviously educated posters i thought i had worked out suddenly come "curveball bats**** crazy" on a subject that is reasonably well defined.

Maybe in about 500 years of assisted evolution with human intervention, there will be a 3rd BASE sex but until then and Startrek is real....

We cant even get along with two genders.
 
Ambiguous genitals is what I meant. Which is still completely irrelevant to what I was talking about in the first place!

I am a man. I was born male. I have a penis (no ambiguity here, trust me). If I decide tomorrow to become a woman, then so be it, but that doesn't make me a real woman. Even if I grow some fantastic boobs!

I'm not talking about people that, when born, caused the doctor to have a confused look on their face, I'm not talking about someone born with both or whatever other condition or birth defects you can think of. If you're any of them, then clearly something went wrong and I don't know what to say to you. I'm talking about the majority of transgender people - the normal male or females that then decide to change and that is all I've ever been talking about. :o
 
If you're any of them, then clearly something went wrong and I don't know what to say to you.

Wow check your male hetero privileges.

Nothing went wrong, its just god decided to make you part of one of the pantheon of new sexes for the entire animal kingdom.
 
It really don't matter when scientific fact it hitting you in the face, if you have a XX chromeosone you're a woman, an XY and you're a man. No amount of social engineering is going to change that.

If you are going to be hitting people with 'scientific facts' then a good start would be to spell 'chromosome' correctly.

The other thing is to actually check your facts are indeed correct. What you've put there is absolute rubbish. Once again sex is expressed as a phenotype ... if you want to stop getting things wrong then I suggest you look a bit further.

There are plenty of men in this world without a Y chromosome. There are plenty of women with a Y chromosome.

And who said such a determination would be 'socially engineered' - some of us actual have moved beyond Money and bother to check the science. :rolleyes:
 
It always amazes me when obviously educated posters i thought i had worked out suddenly come "curveball bats**** crazy" on a subject that is reasonably well defined.

It always amazes me when clearly uneducated posters think they have the ability to judge whether other members are educated or not. Makes you think.
 
It really don't matter when scientific fact it hitting you in the face, if you have a XX chromeosone you're a woman, an XY and you're a man. No amount of social engineering is going to change that.

Perhaps in 100 years time science will come up with other proof that the sexes aren't just based on xx and xy.
 
Perhaps in 100 years time science will come up with other proof that the sexes aren't just based on xx and xy.

Arrgghhh they already have! You guys drive me bonkers! :D

Look up DAX1 -< that will give you an indicator into why the development isn't just related to SRY like this forum seems to think. Of the 30 odd genes I can think of off the top of my head that are influencing what sex is presented most are on the autosomes even if SRY has a really powerful effect.
 
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Arrgghhh they already have! You guys drive me bonkers! :D

Look up DAX1 -< that will give you an indicator into why the development isn't just related to SRY like this forum seems to think. Of the 30 odd genes I can think of off the top of my head that are influencing what sex is presented most are on the autosomes even if SRY has a really powerful effect.

So where do Apache attack helicopters fit in to that?

Fwt fwt fwt fwt...pew pew BKRKRKR!
 
Arrgghhh they already have! You guys drive me bonkers! :D

Look up DAX1 -< that will give you an indicator into why the development isn't just related to SRY like this forum seems to think. Of the 30 odd genes I can think of off the top of my head that are influencing what sex is presented most are on the autosomes even if SRY has a really powerful effect.

I'm not scientific but some people think they are.
I came up with DAX1 from observations over the last 58 years :D
 
It always amazes me when clearly uneducated posters think they have the ability to judge whether other members are educated or not. Makes you think.

Judge ? The guy is a student of medicine as far as i recall. Maybe its not him.
If medicine is moving towards multiple sexes being normal and not a freakish genetic mutation then great. Until then ill stick to what is our current working model .

I have no clue about your education hurfdurf. TBh i have very little interest in you either, your lifestyle, from all ive read, is probably too wound up in the subject matter to be anything nonopinionated.

I couldnt care less about people identifying as Heterosexual teapots trapped in a cats body and other modern BS. Infact i pity the worlds future but ill be dead before its the norm on application forms. praise allah
 
Judge ? The guy is a student of medicine as far as i recall. Maybe its not him.
If medicine is moving towards multiple sexes being normal and not a freakish genetic mutation then great. Until then ill stick to what is our current working model .

I have no clue about your education hurfdurf. TBh i have very little interest in you either, your lifestyle, from all ive read, is probably too wound up in the subject matter to be anything nonopinionated.

I couldnt care less about people identifying as Heterosexual teapots trapped in a cats body and other modern BS. Infact i pity the worlds future but ill be dead before its the norm on application forms. praise allah

:confused:

Random...
 
We can sit here all day listing issues that could potentially arise during the development of babies, but that isn't relevant to most of the population is it, hence why I said if everything goes as it should. If you're a female with an XY chromosome pair, then that is not normal. I'm sure there's a medical term for that...

It's not normal to have hair of a very pale colour. There's a medical term for that. Does that mean that any definition of hair colour should exclude very pale hair colour?

A definition has to cover more than what usually happens (which is what "normal" means).

I think your definition of sex fails on three points:

1) It's not about sex. Sex is about phenotype, not genotype. There's a connection, but they're not the same thing.

2) It doesn't cover enough.

3) It's based on inadequate knowledge. Even the best experts in the world have a far from complete understanding of genetics, but they're well past the over-simplification of XX and XY alone.

It's a simplification that usually works. That's not good enough for a proper definition.

I'm talking about people that have been born exactly how they should have - no issues whatsoever - then going ahead and mutilating themselves/taking hormones because they are not happy with what life has selected for them.
Your statement contradicts itself. If they had "no issues whatsoever" with their sex, then they would be content with it. They wouldn't be suffering as they were and they wouldn't be going through the lengthy hassle of a sex change.

Since you don't fully understand genetics and epigenetics (nobody does), you can't accurately state that everything is as it should be. In any case, who decides what should be and why do they get to decide?

I'm sorry, but you cannot change. You will always be what you are.
I was a single-celled fertlised egg. I'm not that now. I was a baby. I'm not that now. I was a child. I'm not that now. I was a young adult. I'm not that now. The same is true for you and everyone else. People change. It is silly to deny that.

No, obviously I don't think that. People were single-celled fertilised eggs, and then they were newborn babies. Because that's a natural change. What isn't natural is chopping off your penis and expecting everyone to think you're a bona fide woman. There's no change there.
So we're back to "natural", which is a false appeal to authority fallacy and can therefore be dismissed out of hand because it has no merit.

I have a hole in my earlobe. It's there because I had a needle poked through my earlobe and a metal ring put into it. That is not natural. It's certainly not genetic. But it's real. The hole is there.

Much of a sex change process is more natural than that, since it's a built-in response to hormones. Ultimately, sex is about hormones since it's hormones that determine what sex a person is. Even after the initial sexing process during gestation, hormones account for a lot of the difference (which is why they're a big part of a sex change). Men and women aren't fundamentally different. The basic template is the same - adult human - and even after the initial development there's a lot of wiggle room for switching between the two to a significant extent solely by triggering natural processes controlled by natural hormones. I am, of course, deliberately belabouring the "natural" aspect because you attach so much importance to it.

I'm also fine with a casual definition of sex for common usage, but mine is based on physiology, i.e. what sex is actually about, and for casual use I'm fine with the "duck" approach. If it's enough like a duck, it's a duck. If he's enough like a man, he's a man. If she's enough like a woman, she's a woman. That'll do for me as a casual, daily usage definition. I don't have an accurate definition because I know just enough about the subject to know that nobody knows enough for that. Any definition of sex must be somewhat arbitrary.

I'll add a bit more in case anyone overlooks the word "physiology". When I say "enough like a man" or "enough like a woman", I'm talking about physiology, i.e. male and female. I'm not talking about behaviour, i.e. masculine and feminine. That's not the same thing at all. I'm talking about sex, not gender. Two very different things.
 
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