West Midlands Police target drivers too close to cyclists

Lethal` · 18 Sep 2016 at 23:32

There's a lot of "I MUST OVERTAKE THE CYCLIST IMMEDIATELY" attitude being displayed in this thread with comments like "Sometimes I can only give 30cm space". How about waiting behind... like you would with a car on a busy street?

paradigm said:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.1...4!1s15PW-Rd4dkQ-vjk9X23-Zw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Note the car up the road, note how close it already is to the offside hedges, note how impossible it would be to give 1.5m, even if the cyclist stopped to let you past..

On that road I wouldn't expect anyone to be overtaking a cyclist unless the cyclist had waved them through and even then I would only really expect a cyclist to wave you through at the passing point.

What would you do if it was a horse in front? Treat it the same way.

Jamesyboyjim · 20 Sep 2016 at 12:30

Unless the police who are actually assigned to this are filming this and using a tape measure, its a waste of everyone's time.

Officer: Do you know why I've pulled you over?
Driver: No?
Officer: You overtook that cyclist too closely.
Driver: No I didn't.
Officer: I'm saying you did.
Driver: Prove it
Officer: I cant.
Driver: Goodbye.

Now, an ad campaign making people more aware, well there's no harm in that.

Nasher · 20 Sep 2016 at 13:18

redline said:
One small thing that would be nice, and something I always did as a cyclist for many years, is a little thank you (just a quick wave of the hand) if a car has been stuck behind you, whether because of the road being too narrow to pass, or due to oncoming traffic. I am always happy to wait behind a bike until its safe to pass... I'm not going to risk killing someone for the sake of a minute or two, but a little courtesy would not go amiss. It does happen now and then, and its nice to feel my patience and thoughtfulness is repaid by the same respect and thoughtfulness.

Also, as a cyclist for over ten years, if things were crazy with cars stretching back, especially on a slow climb, or very narrow lane, then I'd pull over and let them go.... in all my years on a bike I never felt unsafe once, but maybe that was because I was proactive in avoiding frustrating other road users, something I try to do as a driver now.

I might just be a bloody saint

Most don't do that though. Especially the lycra brigade who think they are fast and in some kind of race. They are quite happy to ride 2 abreast with a mile long queue behind them :/

Evilpaul · 20 Sep 2016 at 13:30

Jamesyboyjim said:
Unless the police who are actually assigned to this are filming this and using a tape measure, its a waste of everyone's time.

Like this...
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/west-midlands-police-prosecute-drivers-11902272

ajf · 20 Sep 2016 at 13:34

Two points about this that get me.
First, where does it actually mention that 1.5m is the minimum you should give? I cannot find any reference in Highway Code etc.
Second, it mentions the same distance as you would give a car.
Well, actually if you are overtaking on a normal 2 lane road, I would say you are a lot closer than 1.5m to the drivers door as you go past.

I understand what they mean to say, and do give sensible room, but it seems another campaign that doesn't relate to actual facts, somewhat along the 'Speed Kills' campaigns.

Orionaut · 20 Sep 2016 at 13:45

Lethal` said:
What would you do if it was a horse in front? Treat it the same way.

Unlike the typical road cyclist, Horse riders seem to be fully aware and appreciative of the inconvenience that they may cause to others by their pastime and typically will make every effort to minimize it by heaving too and allowing faster traffic to pass whenever possible.

If you come across a Horse when driving, you can be pretty sure that any delay really will be minimal. The same cannot be said for road cyclists (Especially of there are more than one and the road is narrow)

If Cyclists behaved like Horse riders, there really wouldn't be a problem.

Jamesyboyjim · 20 Sep 2016 at 15:09

ajf said:
where does it actually mention that 1.5m is the minimum you should give? I cannot find any reference in Highway Code etc.
Second, it mentions the same distance as you would give a car.
Well, actually if you are overtaking on a normal 2 lane road, I would say you are a lot closer than 1.5m to the drivers door as you go past.

Evilpaul said:
Like this...
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/west-midlands-police-prosecute-drivers-11902272

If its not in the highway code, have the police decided off their own backs what the gap should be and are doing people based on a figure they have made up, whilst categorising it as driving without due care and attention preying on peoples ignorance as most will just plead guilty?! Unless its in the highway code and I've missed it, I'd certainly be arguing in court that the police are making their own rules up. Correct me if I'm wrong, I usually am..

Lethal` · 20 Sep 2016 at 15:21

Orionaut said:
Unlike the typical road cyclist, Horse riders seem to be fully aware and appreciative of the inconvenience that they may cause to others by their pastime and typically will make every effort to minimize it by heaving too and allowing faster traffic to pass whenever possible.

If you come across a Horse when driving, you can be pretty sure that any delay really will be minimal. The same cannot be said for road cyclists (Especially of there are more than one and the road is narrow)

If Cyclists behaved like Horse riders, there really wouldn't be a problem.

I was referring to that particular road.

What would you do if you came across a horse on it?

You reckon the horse would jump into the hedge out the way?

I bet you've been held up by cars far longer than you've been held up by cyclists.

Burnsy2023 · 20 Sep 2016 at 15:24

ajf said:
Second, it mentions the same distance as you would give a car.
Well, actually if you are overtaking on a normal 2 lane road, I would say you are a lot closer than 1.5m to the drivers door as you go past.

You're misunderstanding. The image in the highway code shows that you need to overtake such that if the bicycle was a car, you'd be in a similar position on the carraigeway.

Rule 163: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-159-to-203

Burnsy2023 · 20 Sep 2016 at 15:27

Jamesyboyjim said:
Unless the police who are actually assigned to this are filming this and using a tape measure, its a waste of everyone's time.

Officer: Do you know why I've pulled you over?
Driver: No?
Officer: You overtook that cyclist too closely.
Driver: No I didn't.
Officer: I'm saying you did.
Driver: Prove it
Officer: I'll evidence my observations and estimations on distance in this statement which will be provided to the court. My professional opinion as a roads policing officer will be taken into consideration.
Court: Guily.
Driver: Crap.

Now, an ad campaign making people more aware, well there's no harm in that.

FTFY. Witness statements from Police Officers carry a lot of weight for these types of traffic offences. You don't need to have video to be prosecuted.

SC0TTRS · 20 Sep 2016 at 15:37

Dog eat dog world! Motor vehicles will always win up against a skinny chump in his boyfriends lycra. Cycles should respect that rule and do as the motorist commands!

Lethal` · 20 Sep 2016 at 15:40

arfoll said:
We both know the horse would more likely wait at the next passing place to get rid of the angry cager whilst the MAMIL would find it funny to make the raging cager wait and just speed up at the passing places At the next junction, both would then get their highway code books out and slap each other with them.

As a cyclist (I wouldn't stretch as far as MAMIL.. I'm still young(ish)) I would much rather slow at the passing place and wave the car through than have it sitting on my tail.

How much faster is a car really going to be able to go on a typical bendy singletrack road than a road cyclist anyway? Not much faster if they're driving safely.

Jamesyboyjim · 20 Sep 2016 at 16:06

Burnsy2023 said:
FTFY. Witness statements from Police Officers carry a lot of weight for these types of traffic offences. You don't need to have video to be prosecuted.

Fair enough, but one police officers word alone shouldn't be enough to gain a successful conviction surely? Usually a motor offence has evidence, damage or cctv. I'd find it outrageous if one coppers opinion is enough. He hasn't measured the gap, he cant prove what the gap was, its his opinion. I wont pretend to be an expert, or even know much about what I'm saying, I'm just very surprised and interested.

Burnsy2023 · 20 Sep 2016 at 16:20

Jamesyboyjim said:
Fair enough, but one police officers word alone shouldn't be enough to gain a successful conviction surely? Usually a motor offence has evidence, damage or cctv. I'd find it outrageous if one coppers opinion is enough. He hasn't measured the gap, he cant prove what the gap was, its his opinion. I wont pretend to be an expert, or even know much about what I'm saying, I'm just very surprised and interested.

Many convictions have been successful based on the witness statement from a single officer. That's how the system works. He doesn't have to be exact on the measurements, for example, he may just need to evidence that you drove without due care and attention, so he may state his estimation of your distance from the cyclist, your speed and the reaction of the cyclist to your manoeuvre. It's up to the court to decide on the basis of the evidence if they believe this meets the criteria set out. There's lots of case law to help guide decisions.

Orionaut · 20 Sep 2016 at 18:30

Lethal` said:
I was referring to that particular road.

What would you do if you came across a horse on it?

You reckon the horse would jump into the hedge out the way?

I bet you've been held up by cars far longer than you've been held up by cyclists.

If I was driving on that road from the vantage point I would expect (to the extent that I would risk a modest wager on it) that any Horse rider would stop at the slightly wider section (just in front of the oncoming car) and wave me through.

I would also risk a modest wager that the typical recreational cyclist would not do so!

I have been driving for 40 years and nearly 500,000 miles and I do not believe I have ever found myself behind a Horse rider for more than 50 yards or so, despite the fact that this is Surrey Hants borders, Horses are not uncommon, and I use roads like that one quite a lot.

By contrast, Last year I found myself behind a "Cycling Club" on such a road that insisted that I follow them at 8MPH for over two miles despite the fact that there were many opportunities for them to wave me through safely at little inconvenience to them! :mad:

Horse riders are never a problem because I Know, with absolute certainty, that any delay is going to be very minor. The same cannot be said for cyclists, especially if the road is narrow or busy.

Lethal` · 20 Sep 2016 at 18:36

Where did you find a 2 mile hill on the Surrey Hants border?

I find it hard to believe they were only going 8mph.

SDK^ · 20 Sep 2016 at 18:37

Orionaut said:
By contrast, Last year I found myself behind a "Cycling Club" on such a road that insisted that I follow them at 8MPH for over two miles despite the fact that there were many opportunities for them to wave me through safely at little inconvenience to them!

8mph for 2 miles :confused:

Were you following cyclists up Mount Ventoux

My 4 year old can cycle quicker and longer than that.

Either way, a group of cyclists trumps you in your car

grudas · 20 Sep 2016 at 18:56

Orionaut said:
If I was driving on that road from the vantage point I would expect (to the extent that I would risk a modest wager on it) that any Horse rider would stop at the slightly wider section (just in front of the oncoming car) and wave me through.

I would also risk a modest wager that the typical recreational cyclist would not do so!

I have been driving for 40 years and nearly 500,000 miles and I do not believe I have ever found myself behind a Horse rider for more than 50 yards or so, despite the fact that this is Surrey Hants borders, Horses are not uncommon, and I use roads like that one quite a lot.

By contrast, Last year I found myself behind a "Cycling Club" on such a road that insisted that I follow them at 8MPH for over two miles despite the fact that there were many opportunities for them to wave me through safely at little inconvenience to them!

Horse riders are never a problem because I Know, with absolute certainty, that any delay is going to be very minor. The same cannot be said for cyclists, especially if the road is narrow or busy.

Sound a bit like a driver who simply needs to learn to share the road really

if you can't deal with something as simple as a cyclist on the road then maybe handing in your license is the way to go.

redline · 20 Sep 2016 at 19:55

Nasher said:
Most don't do that though. Especially the lycra brigade who think they are fast and in some kind of race. They are quite happy to ride 2 abreast with a mile long queue behind them :/

There does seem to be an increase in the 'bad attitude' cyclist, those who seem to court trouble, and be extra awkward for some reason... I've witnessed, or been on the receiving end* of a few cyclists that seem to provoke situations, rather than make sure everyone is as safe and untroubled as possible. But, then you have the dumb-ass driver that seems unable to deal with any slow moving road user, and manages to panic and do the worst thing possible in order to get past.

It is amazing what a quick friendly wave, or thumbs-up will do to dissolve aggression and prevent a situation from escalating; and the more vulnerable you are the better it is to do everything you can to prevent conflict. If you're holding traffic up, please try and do something about it when you can and everyone's lives will be that little bit better for it... and you're more likely to live longer too.

* Just a quick example... following a cyclist the other day down a country lane, he had the opportunity to let me pass on a wide section, but did not do so, forcing me to follow him into a narrow section for an unreasonable distance... Once the road opened-up again he proceeded to move very slowly to the right (not the left) until I had enough room to pass, which was quite bizarre... he kept looking back through the narrow section, and I think he moved to the right, expecting me to 'have a go' which, despite being annoyed I didn't do. I might be wrong, but he did seem to be looking for some aggro...