Friend getting done for fly tipping - be warned!

Some councils spend millions clearing up illegally dumped rubbish. Why should we pay for the Op's friends mistake at not making sure the person getting rid of her rubbish was licenced?

Normally if someone is offering a service it is up to them to ensure they comply with any relevant laws or licences. Private citizens neither have the knowledge nor the capacity to really assess every single tradesperson they deal with.

The reason councils hold the person who hired them rather than the person that lied / broke the law, is because the person who hired them is more likely to have money and more likely to be afraid of the legal system and thus pay up. The goal is to get money, not ensure justice is done.
 
No. The builder she had contracted to renovate her kitchen had organised to take the rubbish away. It just so happened someone turned up on exactly the same day this person was supposed to come and take the rubbish. Such bad luck :(

This is what I'd try and argue as well, but at the end of the day it was her waste not the builder. He was just a proxy to the dodgy waste disposal guy. Hope it works out well for her, and I hope that people are made more aware of their obligations ongoing.
 
Shame on the council? Unfortunately not. Fly tipping is a horrible thing to do and I'm glad to see they're investigating and chasing up instances. Unfortunately your friend could be partially responsible now as she didn't make sue her waste was properly disposed of.
 
So much this. Our local tip now requires photo ID to enter, however, once you're inside they couldn't care less. They never seem to have the right containers available either and they up throwing all my stuff in the general waste container.

Ours are anal. They ask you before you have even opened your door and whats in every bag. You get told off if you dont put the right thing in the right skip (about 20 types)

And once I walked into the tip carrying my rubbish and it was busy and nobody noticed until i was leaving when i got shouted at that I was only only allowed to tip by car not on foot!
 
Normally if someone is offering a service it is up to them to ensure they comply with any relevant laws or licences. Private citizens neither have the knowledge nor the capacity to really assess every single tradesperson they deal with.

The reason councils hold the person who hired them rather than the person that lied / broke the law, is because the person who hired them is more likely to have money and more likely to be afraid of the legal system and thus pay up. The goal is to get money, not ensure justice is done.

No. It is the waste producers responsibility. Ignorance of the law means nothing.

I suppose you feel the same way about people employing nannies and housekeepers who are illegal immigrants? Why should the poor private citizen have any knowledge about whether that person is legally allowed to work here.

They have huge advert hoardings at the tip about this reminding people. The classic "man with a white van" advert who will take your rubbish away for £80 but the fines are £1000s for you the householder if you dont carry out your due care.
 
Why hasn't anyone asked about more info on the contract between her and the builder?

Surely she has a contract between her and the builder, and the removal of the waste was arranged between her and the builder, if the builder has arranged for someone to pick it up on his behalf, that person represents the builder, and the builder is the one who holds responsibility as much as the owner.

All she needs to do is prove that the builder agreed to remove - the builder should be licensed, and should have an invoice of work carried out as well as giving her a receipt.

if you are telling us that she hired a builder to come into her house, build on property, without planning permission, a quote, a invoice, a receipt and no email, text / telephone / written correspondence while the work is being planned / undertaken / finalised....

Then your friend needs a lesson to be taught.

If however, she does have any of the above, then all she needs to find out, is if the builder is authorised to dump in the tip, even then, she can probably prove that she was under the impression he would remove legally.

It's just as convenient to the council to say "the law is the law and it's your responsibility" as it is joe public saying "I didn't know".

But if you are lied to / deceived into thinking they will do it legally and don't, and can be proven - then that's another thing entirely.
 
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Why hasn't anyone asked about more info on the contract between her and the builder?
She is getting a solicitor and I suspect this will be what they concentrate on. She could even go as far as blaming the builder. Think about it this way; builder says someone will pick up the rubbish on Monday. Somebody turns up on Monday and takes it away. Council try to take her to court, she proves builder had all licences etc (whatever it is) and was arranging removal. Therefore it is entirely his problem. You could argue it is him who should be going to court.

And by the way, she is a sensible professional person. I don't know any other way to describe her. When she does stuff, she does it properly. She wouldn't have used some dodgy bodgit-and-scarper type builder. I've seen the finished work, it's very professional.

But if you are lied to / deceived into thinking they will do it legally and don't, and can be proven - then that's another thing entirely.
It's this bit that really gets me. She was totally deceived yet she is the one being punished :( Just because the useless pen-pushers can't get the real criminal.

I was also under the impression that the 'interview' she did was with the police. But it was actually with the council and it was recorded. No doubt they know exactly how to word their questions to entrap her into admitting guilt (as per the court's eyes), all to help their case. Again, more deviousness. Scumbags :(
 
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Was the guy that turned up actually sent by the builder or was it just very unfortunate timing?
 
She is getting a solicitor and I suspect this will be what they concentrate on. She could even go as far as blaming the builder. Think about it this way; builder says someone will pick up the rubbish on Monday. Somebody turns up on Monday and takes it away. Council try to take her to court, she proves builder had all licences etc (whatever it is) and was arranging removal. Therefore it is entirely his problem. You could argue it is him who should be going to court.

And by the way, she is a sensible professional person. I don't know any other way to describe her. When she does stuff, she does it properly. She wouldn't have used some dodgy bodgit-and-scarper type builder. I've seen the finished work, it's very professional.

It's this bit that really gets me. She was totally deceived yet she is the one being punished :( Just because the useless pen-pushers can't get the real criminal.

I was also under the impression that the 'interview' she did was with the police. But it was actually with the council and it was recorded. No doubt they know exactly how to word their questions to entrap her into admitting guilt (as per the court's eyes), all to help their case. Again, more deviousness. Scumbags :(

All depends. She cant pass the blame to builder unless she checked that he had a waste disposal licence from the EA and she got a waste transfer note from the builder.

If she didn't do either of these things the buck stops with her I am afraid.

The law requires you to do all that is reasonable to:
Prevent anyone disposing of your household waste unlawfully, including appliances and building debris – you could be held responsible if someone else disposes of or manages your waste illegally.
Prevent the waste escaping from your control, or from anyone else’s control.
Transfer your waste only to an authorised waste carrier who is registered with the Environment Agency, your local council, or a waste manager who is permitted to accept the waste.
Keep all copies of waste transfer notes. The person who takes your waste away (your builder, plumber, gardener etc) must give you one of these.

Penalties you will face

If you don’t comply with your duty of care you can be fined up to £5,000 for each offence at a Magistrate’s Court. Serious cases heard at higher courts can incur an unlimited fine. Ignorance will not be a defence if your waste is fly-tipped by someone else, even if you’ve paid for it to be taken away – so make sure you do the checks. People caught fly-tipping can be arrested, fined up to £50,000, be imprisoned and get a criminal record.

Advice to Dispose of household waste legally

The following advice will help you dispose of household waste legally if you are using builders or contractors to carry out work on your home, having a clear out or a general tidy up:

Make sure the person collecting your rubbish is authorised to do so. This can be done by contacting the Environment Agency on 08708 506 506 or visiting the Environment Agency website. You can also ask to see their waste carrier licence. If you do not make the check, you could be fined up to £5,000

Keep a note of their details, including the vehicle registration number.

Provide a full description of the waste for the person taking your rubbish giving details of any unusual characteristics that could affect how they plan to handle or dispose of it.

Keep all paperwork.

If she has no waste paperwork from the builder then she is guilty I am afraid. If the builder is registered for waste and she has the paperwork then she has nothing to worry about and they will go after the builder.

As for entrapement there is none needed. Once she admits that it was here waste, which clearly it is, unless she did check his paperwork then she is legally in the wrong.
 
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I just had an extension built and the removal of waste was written in

some went to the usual local authority waste recycling, so old fencing etc, soil and rubble went somewhere else

I asked because I had just watched that bbc2 program about local councils where they follow an environmental health officer round as he investigates fly tipping

but he was a large contractor with many jobs ongoing, majority of building waste from the job was put into supplied skips...but I still asked just to be safe!
 
If she has no waste paperwork from the builder then she is guilty I am afraid. If the builder is registered for waste and she has the paperwork then she has nothing to worry about and they will go after the builder.

As for entrapement there is none needed. Once she admits that it was here waste, which clearly it is, unless she did check his paperwork then she is legally in the wrong.

Paperwork can be an email saying he will collect the waste, and waste removal is normally charged for and included in any quote for work done.

She should really get her facts straight, or at least, I don't think she's told the op the whole situation, getting your facts in order is paramount in this situation
 
If she has no waste paperwork from the builder then she is guilty I am afraid. If the builder is registered for waste and she has the paperwork then she has nothing to worry about and they will go after the builder.
This is the stupid thing. She believed the guy collecting the waste was the builder's guy. Had she not found out it wasn't, the blame would be on the builder. But because she found out later that wasn't the builders guy, now she's to blame? How does that work then? :confused:

Was the guy that turned up actually sent by the builder or was it just very unfortunate timing?
As above, very unfortunate timing :(

Paperwork can be an email saying he will collect the waste, and waste removal is normally charged for and included in any quote for work done.

She should really get her facts straight, or at least, I don't think she's told the op the whole situation, getting your facts in order is paramount in this situation
I'm sure she has all relevant paperwork from the builder. Like I said before, she would have used somebody that was totally legit and above board with contracts and paperwork in place. That's not really the worry.
 
Paperwork can be an email saying he will collect the waste, and waste removal is normally charged for and included in any quote for work done.

She should really get her facts straight, or at least, I don't think she's told the op the whole situation, getting your facts in order is paramount in this situation

Thats not good enough though in the eyes of the law. I could send you a quote now saying I will get rid of the waste. Unless you check whether I have a waste licence either by asking for a copy or ringing the EA, if I then dump it all, you carry the can.

The law clearly states that paying somebody to remove your waste does not release you from responsibility,.
 
I'm sure she has all relevant paperwork from the builder. Like I said before, she would have used somebody that was totally legit and above board with contracts and paperwork in place. That's not really the worry.

If the builder has a waste transfer licence and his quote included taking the waste away then she has nothing to worry about.
 
I suppose you feel the same way about people employing nannies and housekeepers who are illegal immigrants? Why should the poor private citizen have any knowledge about whether that person is legally allowed to work here.

Pretty much. If I as a regular busy employed person find someone who is willing to work as a cleaner once a week in my home and I approve of them, I don't accept that it is my moral responsibility to conduct research into their background and take responsibility for them lying to me. It's not my job to track other people's honesty as a private citizen. Nor do I think it right that the government gets to make me a proxy police officer tracking down people for it.

So yes, I do feel the same way. The reason they are coming after the OP's friend is because she is the one they can fine, she is the one they consider most likely to be scared by a letter with the words "county court judgement" on it, etc. But she is not the one who lied to anybody or dumped waste at the side of a motorway. Any pursuance of redress that had a moral foundation would go after the person who did both of these things, but they wont get any money from him so the law puts the blame on the person it thinks it can get redress from for being fooled.
 
This is the stupid thing. She believed the guy collecting the waste was the builder's guy. Had she not found out it wasn't, the blame would be on the builder. But because she found out later that wasn't the builders guy, now she's to blame? How does that work then? :confused:

As above, very unfortunate timing :(

I'm sure she has all relevant paperwork from the builder. Like I said before, she would have used somebody that was totally legit and above board with contracts and paperwork in place. That's not really the worry.

I'm not sure I buy this about unfortunate timing, just seems like too much of a coincidence. And did she not have the builder's actual guy turn up later with nothing to remove?

Sounds like she has mentioned this to the builder and he has played dumb to avoid responsibility.
 
Pretty much. If I as a regular busy employed person find someone who is willing to work as a cleaner once a week in my home and I approve of them, I don't accept that it is my moral responsibility to conduct research into their background and take responsibility for them lying to me. It's not my job to track other people's honesty as a private citizen. Nor do I think it right that the government gets to make me a proxy police officer tracking down people for it.

So yes, I do feel the same way. The reason they are coming after the OP's friend is because she is the one they can fine, she is the one they consider most likely to be scared by a letter with the words "county court judgement" on it, etc. But she is not the one who lied to anybody or dumped waste at the side of a motorway. Any pursuance of redress that had a moral foundation would go after the person who did both of these things, but they wont get any money from him so the law puts the blame on the person it thinks it can get redress from for being fooled.

But always that is the law and has been like that for years. It is the private individual's responsibility to ensure waste is legally disposed off. The buck stops with them.

I feel sorry for where the waste has been illegally tipped. Its the landowners responsibility to then pay for legal disposal.

I know farmers who have to pay £1000s every year to get rid of the fly tipped waste.
 
This is the stupid thing. She believed the guy collecting the waste was the builder's guy. Had she not found out it wasn't, the blame would be on the builder. But because she found out later that wasn't the builders guy, now she's to blame? How does that work then? :confused:

.

Hold on I am lost. Some stranger came and took her waste away for free? at the same time she was expecting the builder's guy to come and take it away?

Or did she pay the guy who turned up to take the waste?
 
Pretty much. If I as a regular busy employed person find someone who is willing to work as a cleaner once a week in my home and I approve of them, I don't accept that it is my moral responsibility to conduct research into their background and take responsibility for them lying to me. It's not my job to track other people's honesty as a private citizen. Nor do I think it right that the government gets to make me a proxy police officer tracking down people for it.

So yes, I do feel the same way. The reason they are coming after the OP's friend is because she is the one they can fine, she is the one they consider most likely to be scared by a letter with the words "county court judgement" on it, etc. But she is not the one who lied to anybody or dumped waste at the side of a motorway. Any pursuance of redress that had a moral foundation would go after the person who did both of these things, but they wont get any money from him so the law puts the blame on the person it thinks it can get redress from for being fooled.
Totally agree with this. Can't say it better. And council's wonder why they are so looked down on.

I'm not sure I buy this about unfortunate timing, just seems like too much of a coincidence. And did she not have the builder's actual guy turn up later with nothing to remove?

Sounds like she has mentioned this to the builder and he has played dumb to avoid responsibility.
Could be. I'm not sure what happened to the builder's guy.

But always that is the law and has been like that for years. It is the private individual's responsibility to ensure waste is legally disposed off. The buck stops with them.

I feel sorry for where the waste has been illegally tipped. Its the landowners responsibility to then pay for legal disposal.

I know farmers who have to pay £1000s every year to get rid of the fly tipped waste.
By this reasoning then if you sell a car to someone and they use it to murder someone, it's your responsibility. For waste you should show reasonable arrangements were made (with builder etc.) but surely it can't go any further than that. Your responsibility for anything should stop once it is out of your hands :confused:

And as for the farmers, perhaps they could invest those thousands into CCTV on their access roads etc to catch the criminals? : dunno :
 
By this reasoning then if you sell a car to someone and they use it to murder someone, it's your responsibility. For waste you should show reasonable arrangements were made (with builder etc.) but surely it can't go any further than that. Your responsibility for anything should stop once it is out of your hands :confused:

And as for the farmers, perhaps they could invest those thousands into CCTV on their access roads etc to catch the criminals? : dunno :

No don't be silly but the law only requires you to do one of two things. Either ring the freephone number to check to see if the builder/oddjobman has a waste licence or ask the builder to see his licence. Just cause you made "reasonable" arrangements with a builder to get rid of it and paid him to do so, doesn't make it legal or absolve you.

Once you have done either of those two steps you aren't held responsible if the builder then goes and dumps the stuff somewhere.

There has been builders with waste licences prosecuted for illegally dumping as obviously its cheaper. Saw one builder who when court said he was struggling financially and they tip charges him £90 a van load and he cant afford that.
 
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