The Battle of Orgreave
- Thread starter Danthus
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Did your step father explain how in some mines they dug for miles in the dirt to get to a few hundred yards of coal?
Did he mention the refusal to use new machines that would have improved productivity?
Did he chip in to help with the cost of huge numbers of subsidence affected homes cause by them digging round in circles at the unions request?
It amuses me that the miners blaming everyone else but their unions refusal to modify for their predicament
Man of Honour
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Another thing that killed the Mines was the pay.
I have mates now who are still not earning what they got back in 1990.
I have mates now who are still not earning what they got back in 1990.
Agree with a lot of the above, the miners weren't the problem it was their union (the NUM) and Arthur Scargils agenda of trying to bring down the government.
The miners wanted to save their jobs but Scargil etc used the strike for their own agenda and effectively destroyed the mining industry and the careers of the miners in the process, this isn't my view this is the views of old former miners who I live on the same estate as - Parksite, Silverdale, Staffs, our estate was built to house the workers of Silverdale opencast mine, ironically one of the last to close in this area, it's now a rather nice nature reserve with a business park built on part of the former site.
The miners wanted to save their jobs but Scargil etc used the strike for their own agenda and effectively destroyed the mining industry and the careers of the miners in the process, this isn't my view this is the views of old former miners who I live on the same estate as - Parksite, Silverdale, Staffs, our estate was built to house the workers of Silverdale opencast mine, ironically one of the last to close in this area, it's now a rather nice nature reserve with a business park built on part of the former site.
Associate
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Um, that's how all mines operate. Even today, be it copper or diamond. You think they dig down and its there?
Subsidence? Very few. I live over an old seam and none of the houses are affected. Poor developers maybe.
Listen, I'm under no illusions as to how scargill contributed, he's a leech. What I cannot let lie is how the miners were treated back then, by the government and police and yes scargill to some extent.
Then you'll be forever damned to live in the past and making no progress.
Coal mining is not the way forward. Embrace the future, don't cling on to the past in some misguided attempt to bring back the good old days. The heyday of British imperialism was built off the back of industrialisation (which the coal mining industry was a significant part of) and the move away from cottage industries. Now that industrialisation is the modern era's cottage industry and people need to move on.
It just sounds like the strikes against modernising the Underground / Royal Mail / add public body here which still happen now. Stuff like this holds back this country from really making leaps in technology to improve day to day lives. Yes it does involve a machine doing someones job better - its 2016...
What you need though is a plan for what to do with the people you replace and innthe case of coal mining the 100 year old communities you rip the hearts out of. The people of the welsh Valleys and the like helped propel this country to greatness and were then dumped with less compassion than a stray dog that's been hit by a car.
The rights and wrongs of the strikes will never be cleared up and agreed on there are far to many hidden agendas even now let alone back then, but anyone who can't see the great wrong we did to these communities is mad.
As I said before, Had Scargil and the NUM been less confrontational and more realistic, the Manual deep mining industry might well have had a much softer landing.
Indeed, many mines might well still be operating, but using robotic machinery or, where the geology is suitable, alternatiive technologies such as insitu gassification.
Indeed
I've spent some time in ponty and merthyr they are shadows of their former selves same with ilkestone up near derby. Tragic.
The use of public enquiries to witch-hunt perceived historic wrongs has to stop. It costs a fortune and achieves nothing.
Any enquiry into such things must investigate all signs and publicly name all wrongs in we are to apply current expectations of behaviour, not purely look at the actions of the state. It must also be funded from current budgets, with a clear link of funding to those who demand the enquiry.
Any enquiry into such things must investigate all signs and publicly name all wrongs in we are to apply current expectations of behaviour, not purely look at the actions of the state. It must also be funded from current budgets, with a clear link of funding to those who demand the enquiry.
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This of course means that anyone or any group wishing to have such an enquiry must be confident that they can match the funds of the establishment - thereby ensuring that the establishment can safely avoid criticism.
Erdoğan in Turkey has a much more honest and straightforward approach to this, just jail anyone who has the temerity to question his dictatorship.
Not really, the money could come from that already earmarked to be spent in those communities, and the police force for the area.
We have to move away from the idea of making demands and expecting the burden to fall on those not relating to the problem, it creates a significant moral hazard.
My understanding of the miners strike was that the tory government of the time wanted the unions destroyed and that the miners were a thorn in the side of politicians holding a heavy hammer over the government. Thatcher and co used the police force to do their dirty work and THAT is what this enquiry should be focusing on, there is a difference when police are there to keep the peace OR brought in to effectively smash the miners up then arrest them for picketing. There were wrongs done on both sides but the government should not have used the police as henchmen. It seems that at that time no one wanted to listen, both sides were decided already.
I remember the government subsidised gas appliance shops that opened up all around S.Yorkshire - natural gas was the way forward and coal was out - a perfect strategy to kill off the miners unions grip in politics. I also remember, in the years leading up to the strikes, the local TV news would report on which pits were getting the most coal out of the ground, like a league table - they paid the miners a bonus for breaking records and all the time it was being stockpiled at the powerstations and so they had the electricity 'issue' sorted out, all it took was a few years of patience but the government wanted the mines gone once they had the gas and electricity sorted and they didnt want to wait any longer - the miners were doomed and the surrounding communities declined. The old Orgreave site is an industrial estate now, home to a Rolls Royce plant and a college to give youth apprenticeships, it took decades for regeneration to take place all over S.Yorkshire due to the loss of steel and coal.
The police should have never been involved in the way they were, the transition was brutal for many people at that time and the hate and distrust of the tory government still lives on strong.
I remember the government subsidised gas appliance shops that opened up all around S.Yorkshire - natural gas was the way forward and coal was out - a perfect strategy to kill off the miners unions grip in politics. I also remember, in the years leading up to the strikes, the local TV news would report on which pits were getting the most coal out of the ground, like a league table - they paid the miners a bonus for breaking records and all the time it was being stockpiled at the powerstations and so they had the electricity 'issue' sorted out, all it took was a few years of patience but the government wanted the mines gone once they had the gas and electricity sorted and they didnt want to wait any longer - the miners were doomed and the surrounding communities declined. The old Orgreave site is an industrial estate now, home to a Rolls Royce plant and a college to give youth apprenticeships, it took decades for regeneration to take place all over S.Yorkshire due to the loss of steel and coal.
The police should have never been involved in the way they were, the transition was brutal for many people at that time and the hate and distrust of the tory government still lives on strong.
Well, if you're going to dredge up history let's be fair about. Thatcher came into power off the back of pledging a strong response to trade unions following a decade where they crippled the country. This includes the coal miners work to rule and strikes in 1974, the 3 day working week and the winter of discontent at the end of the decade. It's arguable that Thatcher had a democratic mandate to effectively break the unions.
That mandate didn't extend to destroying the communities around the pits once she beat the unions. She was a public servant like all politicians, not some tyrant enacting revenge on those who dared to stand up for their livelihoods. Shutting down the pits wholesale and then leaving whole communities to rot was not in her job description.
Could you list the public inquiries relating to wrongs that were merely 'perceived'?
Have not read most of this thread
But what do we know already
The policing of the event was excessive.
The miners were no saints either.
The police statements have a lot of questions that need answering.
Most of the senior police in charge are now retired on fat pensions.
What good would an enquiry now do apart from tell us what we already know?
But what do we know already
The policing of the event was excessive.
The miners were no saints either.
The police statements have a lot of questions that need answering.
Most of the senior police in charge are now retired on fat pensions.
What good would an enquiry now do apart from tell us what we already know?
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Is completely flawed.
Really, people need to go read up the facts. For a start the cause of the miners strike was the proposal to close 30 uneconomic pits to stem the billion pound annual losses NCB was making (remember this is over a billion in 1970s - near £10bn in todays money). Yes, just 30 out of around 1400 pits. The closure of far more was in no small part due to the strike itself and the way Scargills NUM escalated it with flying pickets - essentially making it an issue that govt could not afford to back down over. At that point BOTH sides got completely out of hand in their actions and when over the govt closed down pits only requiring small subsidies even though it would have cost the same as paying the unemployed miners dole and benefits.
Yes, the likelihood is that far more pits would have closed over time as cheaper imports grew, coal fired power stations were phased out and the demand for coal fell, but a slower attrition rate would have gone a long way to soften the blow to communities across Wales and the North.
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