Armchair Lawyers Part 2: Sacking a new staff member

Sack the scum and don't look back.
This is what probation periods are for. Extreme exploitation of desperate people. Rehire someone and repeat until you find Mr right. Then stick them on zero hour contract.
 
Avenged7Fold said:
This thread is a pretty risky start to dismissing someone, i suggest that before your next thread post on 'how to employer', you remove certain details from your profile.
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Oh dear, I know the company and have seen their vans around in the local area before.
 
Kamerad said:
I wonder how many companies seek advice on employement law from overclocking forums :p
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Absolutely, to think there may be some posters on this forum who have got real life experiences of this type of thing.
Somebody asked for parenting advice the other week, lol, none of us are parents yet.
None of us have reached driving age either.
 
ICDP said:
Yeah, because business owners are always fair and ethical with their employees. Let me counter this with a "they are people, not slaves". There seems to be a lot of business owners who actually feel they can treat people like dirt because they pay them minimum wage.



This I agree with but that is of course assuming this is the reason they are not working out. If it's because they refused to work an extra shift at short notice, or something not covered in their JD, then they are within their rights.



Agreed. If you have to let someone go (I have done so in the past a few times) then it's best to pay them for the rest of the week and get them to leave.



And a lot of business owners fail to grasp that unreasonable demands, or forcing horrible working contracts/conditions on a workforce are illegal and unethical.

Look at it this way, you contract someone to do work and you pay them for it. They do what they are paid to do in their contract and nothing more. Failure for either party to honour these contractual obligations can come from one or both parties.
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Correct. My old boss expected his staff to work 80 hours a week just because thats what he did and then be available evenings and weekends and holidays on their mobile as "he never switches off so why should they".

Difference is he gets several million pounds a year for his efforts and he chooses to do that. His employees dont.

He once reprimanded me because on the day i before I was due to go on holiday for two weeks at Christmas because I refused to cancel my holidays because we were so busy. (His reprimand consisted of a 5 minute answer phone message on the next working day asking where the **** as was and swearing at me because I hadn't cancelled my holidays and come in as agreed. I had agreed nothing. He also muttered something about it not being right that he as a boss had to work to ruin his Christmas but his staff werent prepared to do the same. He never offered any incentive or money to do so, it was just expected that people would cancel their holidays.
 
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Greebo said:
Correct. My old boss expected his staff to work 80 hours a week just because thats what he did and then be available evenings and weekends and holidays on their mobile as "he never switches off so why should they".
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I remember your horror stories about your old employer, there were some grim reading!
 
Rids said:
I remember your horror stories about your old employer, there were some grim reading!
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Yeah over three years on now and loving my current job and employer.

Just a shame it took a complete breakdown, loads of time off work, drugs and months of therapy to get me back on the right track.
 
At least there seems to be valid reasons, ive had to give temps the sack simply due to a downturn in work volume, horrible conversation to have especially as some of them were model employees, and good people.

I found the best way to deal with it for both parties is a bit like how a doctor gives peoplew bad news, build it up as little as possible, keep it concise and matter of fact and don't drag it out.
 
I have to admit the last employer I gave them 3 days notice and left because I was agency. Any demands on me that were surplus to the job role were met with a "no, give me a full-time wage and I will if it's in the job contract."
They should have been greatful I gave them 3 days... If I'd been rubbish they'd have no problem sacking me that day without notice. I'd seen them do it to agency. As I said to them "loyalty costs money - pay me enough and you'll get it, otherwise no."

I'll be unemployed for a while lol.
 
Cant you "work out" whats wrong,Maybe the employee needs additional training or something,You have not said what exactly the issue is to why its not working out for this employee so it comes across to us like your "just wanting rid" to be honest.
 
terley said:
Nope i've sacked tons of staff within their 6 months trial period.. just tell them that they have failed their probation period.. You don't have to explain why, just say that they failed.. if you give any reason you leave yourself open.
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See this is the problem with today's managers,They're so far up their own backside "you dont have to explain why"..uhm YES you do when your taking away someones bloody job/lively hood,Its called respect...whether or not they were ideal for the job role they at least deserve an explanation.
 
Nevakonaza said:
See this is the problem with today's managers,They're so far up their own backside "you dont have to explain why"..uhm YES you do when your taking away someones bloody job/lively hood,Its called respect...whether or not they were ideal for the job role they at least deserve an explanation.
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What tends to happen though, is that the more 'respect' you grant somebody, the more they take you for a ride and become a pain to your existence.

If you're doing a cost / benefit in respect of giving them a reason vs. not bothering, there are far more reasons not to bother than to bother. As harsh as it may seem to the proletariat blue collars amongst us.
 
Greebo said:
Correct. My old boss expected his staff to work 80 hours a week just because thats what he did and then be available evenings and weekends and holidays on their mobile as "he never switches off so why should they".

Difference is he gets several million pounds a year for his efforts and he chooses to do that. His employees dont.

He once reprimanded me because on the day i before I was due to go on holiday for two weeks at Christmas because I refused to cancel my holidays because we were so busy. (His reprimand consisted of a 5 minute answer phone message on the next working day asking where the **** as was and swearing at me because I hadn't cancelled my holidays and come in as agreed. I had agreed nothing. He also muttered something about it not being right that he as a boss had to work to ruin his Christmas but his staff werent prepared to do the same. He never offered any incentive or money to do so, it was just expected that people would cancel their holidays.
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I know the feeling, I was stupid enough to endure a horrible workplace and boss for 2.5 years that had me close to depression.

I lived and worked in Belfast and one day I was 20 minutes late due to a bomb scare that cancelled all public transport in the city centre. The boss was livid and told me he was docking me 1 hours wages, so I stood outside my work for the extra 40 minutes he refused to pay me for. ****ed if I was going to give the **** 40 minutes of my time for free.

I eventually remembered I had the experience and skill to do better so I moved on.

The OP gave zero info other than I want to sack someone who hasn't worked out for an unspecified reason, is that OK? In my experience when people are deliberately being vague it for nefarious reasons. The fact they are asking in OCUK GD is in even bigger red flag.
 
Participant said:
What tends to happen though, is that the more 'respect' you grant somebody, the more they take you for a ride and become a pain to your existence.

If you're doing a cost / benefit in respect of giving them a reason vs. not bothering, there are far more reasons not to bother than to bother. As harsh as it may seem to the proletariat blue collars amongst us.
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The thing is saying you are not working out without at least some explanation is kinda a dick move. At least give a brief reason. "You have failed to work out during your probationary period because despite us providing plenty training and opportunity to improve your work-rate/timekeeping/attendance/attitude (or combination of these) is substandard".
 
[FnG]magnolia;30217706 said:
If you're relying on a computer forum for employment law advice on how to shaft your employees and whatever else then perhaps you should consider a job that doesn't involve you having direct impacts on other people's lives.
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I thought you were above this type of thing.
You know damn well it isn't just a 'computer forum' because we have 1000s of professional people on here who know their stuff and I'm sure you must have advanced knowledge in something.
Or don't judge the rest of the forum by your IQ.

Anyway OP, it sounds like you've got a right PITA on your hands that you've already spoken to about their behaviour. Listen to those who've already given good advice (I've got none) and good luck it doesn't bite you in the ass. It really does my head in when people are hired and they are well below standard.
 
ICDP said:
The thing is saying you are not working out without at least some explanation is kinda a dick move. At least give a brief reason. "You have failed to work out during your probationary period because despite us providing plenty training and opportunity to improve your work-rate/timekeeping/attendance/attitude (or combination of these) is substandard".
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I agree it's the right thing to do, but what's the incentive on a manager to do so, when as soon as you open your mouth to feedback you risk exposing yourself to complaints or tribunals? That's how people can be unfortunately.
 
SexyGreyFox said:
I thought you were above this type of thing.
You know damn well it isn't just a 'computer forum' because we have 1000s of professional people on here who know their stuff and I'm sure you must have advanced knowledge in something.
Or don't judge the rest of the forum by your IQ.

Anyway OP, it sounds like you've got a right PITA on your hands that you've already spoken to about their behaviour. Listen to those who've already given good advice (I've got none) and good luck it doesn't bite you in the ass. It really does my head in when people are hired and they are well below standard.
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I really can't understand people who react to magnolia seriously, he's an attention-seeking clown, almost to the point of desperation. My quality of forum reading improved the moment I put him on ignore.
 
ICDP said:
Agree 100%. The OP is admitting to not telling the full story which gets alarm bells ringing. He/She is hoping they can sack someone "for not working out" yet if they are so bad why keep them on until just before Xmas.

OP wants to basically shaft someone and came here asking is it legally OK.
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Perhaps OP has already "shafted" her and things have become akward and that is why it "hasn't worked out".

Just saying :p
 
Participant said:
I agree it's the right thing to do, but what's the incentive on a manager to do so, when as soon as you open your mouth to feedback you risk exposing yourself to complaints or tribunals? That's how people can be unfortunately.
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The line I quoted is one I use and I don't need to elaborate to the person who's contract I am terminating. As long as you can back it up by facts and figures should it go to tribunal then you are covered. If you tell someone their contract is being terminated because their workrate/attendance/timekeeping is poor then it better bloody well be true, or you deserve to be taken to a tribunal. Also the fact you reached this point should not come as a surprise to someone, because any decent boss should have already been presenting these facts when giving this person "opportunity to improve" over previous weeks.

If this is the scenario the OP faces then I agree he should terminate their contract.

I have had threats and people telling me I was a lying sack of **** when I let them go. Though every single time I was able to go to the recruitment agency or HR and show them conclusive evidence that I was more than fair with these people.

I have a responsibility to the grafters and decent workers in my team to ensure they are not suffering because they are dragging deadwood along with them.
 
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Richdog said:
I really can't understand people who react to magnolia seriously, he's an attention-seeking clown, almost to the point of desperation. My quality of forum reading improved the moment I put him on ignore.
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He may be what you say but he knows we have experts on these forums in all walks of life.
We're not all 15 year olds with no life experience.
 
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